| LParisi | says | From Damian613 in twitter. www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-lesbian-student_bdaug24,0,3076038.story |
Aug 29, 2008 -
08:52AM
| LParisi | says | From Damian613 in twitter. www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-lesbian-student_bdaug24,0,3076038.story |
| TammyW | says | between that story and your bowling alley account from last night ... shaking my head in disbelief that people can be so narrow-minded. |
| dmantz7 | says | I am not so much as shocked as upset and frustrated that people in those type of roles are so narrowed minded and shallow. |
| cleisure | says | it is just very, very sad. |
| LParisi | says | Dean, I am shocked. I just keep getting shocked over and over again. Too idealistic I guess. And it hurts. |
| cleisure | says | I thought that as a nation we were past so much of this outward hatred toward differences. You know there will always be some lurking in the |
| cleisure | says | shadows, but to be so openly outward about it, it is scary and sad. And to be a principal doing that? Shameful. |
| LParisi | says | What about the superintendent with his bible on his desk? |
| 1/2012☆ stacy | says | maybe it's because where I live, but it's still out there. I don't even want to go into the story about what a teacher said about the |
| 1/2012☆ stacy | says | holocaust...and she was a teacher. YoOUR beliefs and be able to verbalize them now more than ever |
| elainej | says | I have no problem with superitendent with the Bible on his desk. He is entitled to his beliefs. We harangue politicians, teachers, and |
| wsigele | says | I'm actually so outraged I'm speechless. |
| elainej | says | others for bringing their beliefs and values into a public space, but we also denigrate people for not sharing values and beliefs we ho |
| elainej | says | hold dear. |
| elainej | says | While I agree this principal behaved excessively badly, I also understand they believe they acted according to their beliefs, with which |
| elainej | says | many do not agree. |
| 1/2012☆ stacy | says | I feel this principal is in violation of separation of government and church. This is NOT a church school but a public school |
| 1/2012☆ stacy | says | He, IMHO, did not handle this professionally |
| Cliotech | says | unbelievable!  |
| 1/2012☆ stacy | says | peregrinator: you can bring your beliefs into a public place, but this is a school and this is supposed to be an educator, he should not |
| 1/2012☆ stacy | says | have done this |
| cobannon | says | As an educator, your beliefs need to be shelved at the door. We're here to educate our students,not judge them. That was way out of bounds |
| cobannon | says | It's a fairly conservative town where I work and I had students who tried to "witness" to me mainly because I never spoke of my religious |
| cobannon | says | beliefs in class. They took that to mean that I wasn't religious. School wasn't my place to discuss that with them. |
| 1/2012☆ stacy | says | correct...it's not |
| 1/2012☆ stacy | says | our district went through a lawsuit that went all the way to the Supreme Court about a Bible story. The teacher won |
| elainej | says | I agree with you stacykasse. The principal and the supe stepped way over the line in their self-righteous zeal. But I also think it can |
| elainej | says | be difficult for some to balance beliefs and practice and what may be acceptable behavior in public. |
| elainej | says | now they (and others like them) are going to feel attacked and then they'll get defensive and then there is no opportunity to discuss |
| elainej | says | appropriate behavior in anything approximating reasonable conversation. OTOH, they might not be interested in reasonable converstaion. |
| 1/2012☆ stacy | says | and many will never trust a teacher, principal or superintendent again |
| LParisi | says | I have very firm beliefs about separation of church and state. The superintendent made decisions based on his beliefs..not the law. |
| Loonyhiker | says | all i can think of what "what in the world are they thinking!" |
| elainej | says | in that position. And neither should the principal. People of faith, any faith, have to make conscious decisions about that intersection |
| elainej | says | of the professional and the personal. |
| kshelton | asks | and why does or should this surprise any of you? |
| kshelton | says | I do not have much faith in many Americans. I have faith in people like you all to educate and get to think about civil/human rights. |
| kshelton | says | I know this will not sit well with some of you, but I think this and religion are what is keeping America down. Not religious beliefs, |
| kshelton | says | but those that hide behind the veil of religion to serve a selfish purpose. The bible does not teach this junk, Jesus did not teach this |
| kshelton | says | junk. |
| kshelton | says | What happened to Life, LIberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness. Not life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, only if you agree with me |
| crandall | says | Many teachers and the Principal in the school I spend 40% have religious articles on their desk/wall. IMHO this is fundamentally wrong. |
| crandall | says | it's a public school |
| crandall | says | when my children were in school, they had a 'mandatory' bachalaurette (SP) breakfast at graduation. I protested but still - 10 yrs later |
| crandall | says | get flack! |
| crandall | says | they still say prayers before and after sporting and banquet events at the school! It's just plain wrong. |
| megbg | says | on their desk. We cannot mandate one religion or have prayers at school events...of any religion. |
| crandall | says | maybe..but say I'm a Muslim child, in the Principal's office. There are all those artifacts of his religion..doesn't that seem out of place? |
| crandall | says | am I being overly sensitive? |
| kshelton | says | ines to yourself and your family |
| kshelton | says | you have to draw a clear distinctive line with this |
| kshelton | asks | what if a teacher has something that you do not agree with up? What do you say? Should you say anything? It is better to have nothing but |
| kshelton | says | educational items up. Schools are for teaching and learning only. Not for pushing ones beliefs onto their students |
| megbg | says | wearing a star of david, a mezzuzh (sp?) at doorway, prayer rug, etc. I realize this is a grey issue and not easily managed |
| kshelton | says | Ok here is a story for you. There was a teacher at one of my previous schools that taught US History |
| megbg | says | in a democracy one's rights should not interfere with another's rights. |
| kshelton | says | yes on his walls he had several posters of Che Guevara. He said the students need to fight their government and be just like him |
| kshelton | says | was that appropriate? I think it wasn't. He also had a picture of Hugo Chavez up |
| megbg | says | so, chocxtc I can have lakers shirts, posters etc all over but not a small nativity say at Christmas time? Explain the difference. |
| kshelton | says | again not appropriate at all. World History perhaps to some extent, but certainly no US History |
| kshelton | says | sports teams are things that people can take or leave. A Nativity scene can be taken as offensive to anybody that is Jewish or a Jehovah's |
| kshelton | says | witness. Or how about a Muslim student |
| kshelton | says | I believe that if you have a Nativity scene you should also have at least a Menorah then |
| megbg | says | unethical. But, we are also people and should be allowed to have (in moderation) peronal artifacts. That said, we have to be very careful |
| megbg | says | to not cross that line |
| kshelton | says | this was a huge debate at my school last year since they did lots of Christmas things and nothing for Hanukah |
| kshelton | says | I was of the opinion that you do something for all or you do nothing. We are predominantly a Christian country, but to me tolerance, |
| kshelton | says | understanding, and respect for others beliefs begins with an acknowledgment of their culture |
| kshelton | says | turn those types of things into a learning process and lesson rather than a demonstration of exclusion or superiority |
| megbg | says | one in the classroom or school public area, or if it is a focal point, that is different |
| kshelton | says | yes you are absolutely correct |
| megbg | says | as for holidays, I would love to see us talk about and celebrate all of them for all cultures in a school community |
| megbg | hates | that so often common sense is discarded and reasonableness is impossible. |
| kshelton | says | and ultimately you and I will agree on this. It should be more about sharing and learning. |
| crandall | says | when I taught K, my literature during holiday months were Jewish,Muslim, and Christain. Many parents questioned , but I stuck with it. |
| crandall | says | in my wing I was known as the Kwanza Queen.. |
| megbg | says | I'll be the first to try and learn a new language or about a new culture. What we don't know about each other is what keeps us apart. |
| LParisi | chocxtc Having a menorah does not make a nativity scene alright. There are so many other religions not covered here. |
| LParisi | chocxtc Having a menorah does not make having a nativity alright. |
| LParisi | This is not a gray area. Religious icons do not belong in a public school. Prayer does not belong in a public school. |
| LParisi | But I think swearing on a bible does not belong in court, saying that we are one nation under God does not belong in the pledge, and |
| LParisi | our money should not say In God we Trust. |
| LParisi | Where is the religious freedom in all of that? |
| kshelton | says | it should be a simple matter of personal choice, end of story |
| kshelton | says | the line between separation of church and state is greyed to the point it has become indecipherable |
| kwhobbes | says | interesting, hmmm. I'd say that if you are not going to allow for personal expression in one area, religion, then you do it in all areas. |
| kwhobbes | says | No religious symbols, sports teams, favourite sayings or famous people or..... As for the money or pledge, then you are destroying the basis |
| kwhobbes | says | upon which your country fought against the oppression of the British, the lives of those who first founded the country. |
| kwhobbes | says | If you try to sterilize all that you have to please everyone, will you please anyone? And why do you have to remove the founding ideals |
| kwhobbes | says | in order to make things "fit" today. You or others may not believe in God but, to the founding members it was crucial to the creation of the |
| kwhobbes | says | country. It was part of the founding fabric of the country. So often, we take historical context and try to apply it to now. It doesn't work |
| kwhobbes | says | To be sterile neutral is as bad as zealous zealots. From where does the moral fabric of the nation come that will defend the rights of the |
| kwhobbes | says | weak, poor, disadvantaged, ill, down-trodden, oppressed, children, foreigners, outcasts as well as everyone else? |
| mindelei | says | RE: Menora & Nativity, just "covering the student population" is not enough. We should be exposing our students to all that is out there, |
| mindelei | says | not just what they see on a daily basis. |
| mindelei | says | To clarify: religious icons should not be in public schools. But I think kids should learn about other peoples' religions. It's healthy. |
| mindelei | says | Do I think we should teach people religion? No. But we should teach the facts about religions. |
| mindelei | says | As for this principal in the south: his actions were deplorable. |
| LParisi | I don't think we need to do it in the context of religion. I am raising my daughter with no organized religion in her life (long story there |
| LParisi | not worth getting into) but I am not raising her without morals. She is a kind, considerate, spiritual child (most of the time |
| LParisi | she is, afterall, also a teenager). |
| LParisi | Our founding fathers also believed women weren't smart enough to vote, blacks should be slaves, and overall, Americans were too stupid to.. |
| LParisi | make decisions about president (hence the electoral college). Some things are not worth keeping. |
| 1/2012☆ stacy | says | wow...this definitely hit a nerve with lots of us. |
| LParisi | I love this conversation! Hopefully I am not insulting anyone. Trying to be honest but considerate. Haven't called anyone names yet.  |
| kwhobbes | says | actions of some are not necessarily based on the foundation of the religion that they use. Organized religion is only part of the religious |
| kwhobbes | says | package and can lead to the zealous zealots who are extreme. The whole idea that you mention your daughter's spiritual side suggest that |
| kwhobbes | says | although there is no organized religion in her life, there are the basic tenants religious belief which bind societies through moral and |
| kwhobbes | says | values that they all can follow. Organized religions and a religious belief are not the same but, to get rid of religious belief can lead |
| LParisi | But aren't religious icons from organized religions? |
| kwhobbes | says | to "anything goes" which, unfortunately, has been demonstrated a few times through history. |
| kwhobbes | says | no. The cross is symbol of christianity - not an icon of any one religion. |
| LParisi | And doesn't just mentioning one God sort of void religions likeConfusionism and other Eastern religions. |
| LParisi | Christianity is a religion. And it's not mine. So I don't want to see it in any public building that I support with my tax dollars. |
| LParisi | And not being of that religion is not the reason why I don't want to see it. |
| LParisi | I teach in a district with many Eastern religious children. They don't use crosses either. |
| LParisi | And actually, the cross was pagan first. |
| LParisi | Although really its from the latin word for crucifix meaning crossroads sign. |
| LParisi | Ok...I digressed...sorry |
| kwhobbes | it was but it was still part of a belief system that was followed by people. |
| kwhobbes | just as various other symbols - but you asked about icons. |
| kwhobbes | icons are from organized religions |
| kwhobbes | christianity is not an organized religion but a particular belief. |
| LParisi | Yes, they are..so do they have a place in a public building? |
| LParisi | Even if everyone in the building practices the same religion and uses the same icons? |
| kwhobbes | Icons - such as ???? |
| LParisi | Christmas trees, scriptures on walls, crosses |
| kwhobbes | depends. I do not find it offensive when I go into the elders office on the reserve, a public building, and he has his display of eagle's |
| kwhobbes | feathers. |
| LParisi | And, hypocritically of me, I don't think I would find that offensive either. Now why is that? |
| kwhobbes | I am mindful that, as part of his culture, he has a position respect. |
| LParisi | Maybe because I see it more as history..not religion. But it is religion. |
| LParisi | Ok...so do we make exceptions for culture? |
| kwhobbes | So, as a christian, I don't ever use that as part of what I do in the school but it is the foundation of who I am as a person & therefore |
| LParisi | And can a Christmas tree be considered culture? |
| kwhobbes | I need to act and respect people based on those beliefs. The cross, although small, reminds ME of what I need to do to others. |
| kwhobbes | The Christmas tree, as far as I'm concerned, has lost all it's relation to anything religious. It's a place where you find presents. |
| LParisi | But do you have the right to display it in your office, where children come? |
| kwhobbes | Why not? |
| LParisi | Doesn't that now impose a belief on them? |
| LParisi | Sort of implied? |
| kwhobbes | Why? It only imposes a belief if it is used for such. Does it matter that I also pray at my desk? |
| kwhobbes | Or that there are parents who meet early in the morning to pray for our school and students? |
| kwhobbes | I would allow native children to wear their hair in braids. I don't make others remove their headgear, a symbol of their religion. |
| LParisi | As long as it is not done in school, it is not a problem. And if you pray in private, not a problem. |
| LParisi | Nor do we. |
| LParisi | You are making me think tonight Kelly.  |
| LParisi | So where is the line you can't cross? When do you start violating someone's civil rights? |
| kwhobbes | Ah, but why can't it be done in public school - it is public. Do we make all children |
| kwhobbes | all be clones - neutral in hope of offending no one or, through discussion and dialogue, do we see that, indeed, we are much the same and |
| kwhobbes | the "symbols" are all just part of who we are as people. |
| kwhobbes | That our morals and values, once you strip away the organized religion aspect, are very similar and can, in fact, draw us together. |
| LParisi | So where do we stop? Do we allow children to come to school and lead a prayer vigil? |
| LParisi | Do we allow a group of students to pray in the cafeteria before eating? |
| LParisi | Do we have a moment of silence in the morning, clearly the time to pray to God. |
| kwhobbes | Of course we allow a group of students to pray before eating. The moment of silence - why is it offensive? |
| kwhobbes | Are we not trying to teach tolerance and acceptance and is not spirituality part of who we are? |
| kwhobbes | Why are we so offended by people demonstrating their beliefs? To understand them, do we not have to understand the whole person - not just |
| LParisi | No...spirituality is not part of who we are. Not all of us. I can be very moral, believe in right and wrong, and not believe in God at all. |
| kwhobbes | I didn't say God - I said a spirituality - something that binds us all - something bigger than each of us. |
| LParisi | So I do not want spirituality to be part of school. I understand it is part of life for some but not all and should not be brought into |
| LParisi | I know not everyone believes there is a something bigger that binds us all. |
| LParisi | What about those people? Can't we teach about religion...teach moralsteach the global connectedness of us all,without bringing spirituality |
| LParisi | into it? |
| kwhobbes | How can we have a global connectedness if we aren't willing to expand beyond just "I"? |
| kwhobbes | You may not believe in a spiritual connectedness but why do you get to dictate what is the norm? |
| LParisi | Global connectedness has nothing to do with spirituality. The first is that I am responsible for all. The second is that a larger being is. |
| kwhobbes | So you aren't offended? But what if it offends me? Are you right? What set of morales or values are being used? |
| LParisi | That didn't come out right. Makes me sound like God. LOL |
| LParisi | Well, let's go back to the Constitution...it's how this conversation started, afterall. |
| LParisi | The Constitution (I know you are not in the US but I think our laws are pretty similar) |
| kwhobbes | And that's the slippery slope we tread by not trying to offend anyone. I know who what you mean |
| LParisi | says | nothing about spirituality |
| kwhobbes | says | our freedom of individual rights does discuss religion infact! |
| LParisi | shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof |
| LParisi | Do we prohibit the Muslim's free exercise of religion when we hang a cross in the room? |
| LParisi | Do we prohibit the athiests free exercise when we have amoment of silence to pray |
| kwhobbes | says | do we prohibit any other's religion freedom when we allow someone to wear their turban in the room? |
| LParisi | Do we establish a specific religion when we put a Christmas tree in a public building? |
| kwhobbes | says | Or allow them to wear braids? Or have eagles' feathers? |
| LParisi | The child wearing a turban is not in position of power in the room. |
| kwhobbes | says | no, but the parent who wears one is and, if he meets my children anywhere, then what's the deal? |
| LParisi | And should a teacher wear a turban, I guess he would have to be careful not to... |
| LParisi | wow...I don't even know what to say |
| kwhobbes | says | I don't agree with what either the principal or superintendent did! But their the zealous zealots I mention. |
| LParisi | Public buildings are funded w/ my money..that's the difference. when a public building decides to display an icon, a statement has been made |
| LParisi | And they truly believe they are right. How do we know we are not zealots who truly believe we are right? |
| kwhobbes | So, if there is no icon on display in a public part of the school, then what's the problem? |
| kwhobbes | well, then we have to decide - do we zealots go to war with those zealots - which has historically been the case - or do we look for another |
| kwhobbes | way to do things. Do we begin to dialogue - knowing that we aren't going to get anywhere with some. |
| LParisi | And that is why I have such a problem with organized religion. LOL |
| LParisi | I feel that way about this dialogue...but you have really made me think tonight. |
| kwhobbes | I can agree about the public display of religious icons in public areas of the school. But in my office ....... |
| LParisi | Where I work, we have many different religions and some very religious students. We walk a very thin line in school all the time |
| kwhobbes | I guess it comes down to what I do with the display of the object. |
| LParisi | Do you allow children into your office? do parents come in? Could I? |
| LParisi | Then it is not public. |
| kwhobbes | of course you could come in but I don't TAKE kids to my office and I meet with parents in a neutral area - better relations that way |
| LParisi | Do tax payers pay for your office? |
| kwhobbes | sure they do. But the building is owned by the School Division - it's not a public buiding! |
| kwhobbes | many people have that misconception of schools - up here anyway. It may be bought by public money but it is owned by the SD. It's not |
| LParisi | Ok..that's a Canadian thing I don't understand. Here, all school buildings are public, including the administration buildings. |
| kwhobbes | so, all school buildings are neutral - so as long as no one in the public building displays anything of religious or spiritual significance |
| kwhobbes | we're okay. |
| kwhobbes | all students, staff and anyone coming into the building - it is a neutral place. |
| LParisi | I think so. That doesn't mean we don't allow individuals to practice as needed...fasting, praying quietly, etc. |
| kwhobbes | I can handle that. But I want no displays of favourite teams as that causes a problem - especially if an adult displays it - it is |
| LParisi | Especially if it is not your favorite team. |
| kwhobbes | or could be a problem. |
| LParisi | And, now, Kelly, I have to go to bed. You must make it to my Conversations show some Sunday morning. You'd add some intelligent discourse. |
| kwhobbes | says | good night. As for intelligent discourse - I have a few parents who would disagree. One even told me it was like talking to a wall! |
| LParisi | LOL so sorry to hear that. I enjoyed the conversation. |
| TeachaKidd | says | Another proud moment in Florida history.  |
| n2teaching | shares | Wow! Sorry I missed this conversation. Go out to eat & miss all the fun. |
| n2teaching | thinks | for me, this was a legal issue. What the principal did was illegal, & you can't wrap religion around rotten meat and call it good. |
| cfox2 | agrees with n2teaching. |
| kshelton | says | wow is all I can say. WOW |
| kwhobbes | thinks | that the conversation was great. The principal in question was WRONG on so many levels! It's guys like him that give us a bad name! |
| mindelei | says | n2teaching Love the visualization there. |
| roswellsgirl | having a hard time sharing my thoughts in plurk form. |
| ✿honeymic | wonders | about what was said earlier about our founding fathers' beliefs. I've heard both ways. We read Ben Franklin's biog. in college and it was |
| ✿honeymic | wonders | pretty clear he had doubts about religion. Jefferson made his own bible, right? |
| ✿honeymic | wonders | www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=6529440 |
| ✿honeymic | asks | PLEASE take a few minutes to listen to the link above. It goes along so well w/this discussion! |
| ✿honeymic | says | I love the balance and practicality the speaker promotes to settle these types of complex "gray" areas. |
| ✿honeymic | says | I think when we insist on black or white issues we grow further apart. |
| ✿honeymic | says | Compromise is really what our country was built on, right? That's what we need to remember, I think. |
| ✿honeymic | thinks | When you're up late enough it's easier to make your point!  |
| kshelton | says |  |
| roswellsgirl | Thinking of public meaning all people. Seems wrong that public means taking away what makes people individuals. |
| roswellsgirl | I have a right to be who I am even as a teacher. Just as we fight for the right for our students to be who they are. |
| roswellsgirl | I don't see being Hindu, Muslim, Jewish or Christian in public places as being offensive or wrong. |
| roswellsgirl | Separation of Church and State has to do with no one belief group being the governing body of our country. It is not about taking away |
| roswellsgirl | people's rights to live their faith in public. |
| roswellsgirl | This is different than religious symbols placed in public places that represent people as a whole. |
| roswellsgirl | Not sure that I am making any sense. Just as we all said it was wrong to insist on someone not speaking their native language in public, |
| roswellsgirl | I think that it would be wrong for others to insist that we not live our faith in public places. |
| roswellsgirl | Students need real. I am not talking about pushing my faith on anyone else, but I should be able to live my faith. |
| LParisi | roswellsgirl I agree. I just feel that as soon as we bring it into school and hang it on a wall... |
| LParisi | or, as in the article, make decisions based on YOUR belief, than we moved into belief being the governing body. Yes? |
| LParisi | BTW...YOUR meant a general your not specifically you, Martha. |
| joelzehring | thinks | the FA principal overstepped his bounds |
| joelzehring | thinks | educators have a limited scope of control: academics, behavior, health, and attendance |
| joelzehring | thinks | the taunting should have been punished, not the girl's preference |
| joelzehring | students and educators should be able to express their beliefs as long as that expression doesn't observably hinder 1 of the 4 areas |
| joelzehring | as for christ-followers: "Preach the gospel at all times -- If necessary, use words." -- Saint Francis of Assisi |
| McTeach | says | Or in the words of my Native American ancestors, "Don't tell me what you believe, show me." |
| McTeach | says | Having grown up in the San Francisco Bay Area, I've never really given homosexuality a second thought. Who we love is determined by our |
| McTeach | says | heart. Not our head. |
| roswellsgirl | I believe the principal was totally in the wrong on this one. |
| roswellsgirl | Just as he would have been wrong to for the principal to pass judgment on her based on her faith. |
| roswellsgirl | LParisi I agree with you. Living our faith does not mean judging others or pushing our faith on others. |
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