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267 responses to this plurk (Jump to bottom)

  • TammyW says
    between that story and your bowling alley account from last night ... shaking my head in disbelief that people can be so narrow-minded.
  • dmantz7 says
    I am not so much as shocked as upset and frustrated that people in those type of roles are so narrowed minded and shallow.
  • cleisure says
    it is just very, very sad.
  • LParisi says
    Dean, I am shocked. I just keep getting shocked over and over again. Too idealistic I guess. And it hurts.
  • cleisure says
    I thought that as a nation we were past so much of this outward hatred toward differences. You know there will always be some lurking in the
  • cleisure says
    shadows, but to be so openly outward about it, it is scary and sad. And to be a principal doing that? Shameful.
  • LParisi says
    What about the superintendent with his bible on his desk?
  • 4/2012☆ stacy says
    maybe it's because where I live, but it's still out there. I don't even want to go into the story about what a teacher said about the
  • 4/2012☆ stacy says
    holocaust...and she was a teacher. YoOUR beliefs and be able to verbalize them now more than ever
  • elainej says
    I have no problem with superitendent with the Bible on his desk. He is entitled to his beliefs. We harangue politicians, teachers, and
  • wsigele says
    I'm actually so outraged I'm speechless.
  • elainej says
    others for bringing their beliefs and values into a public space, but we also denigrate people for not sharing values and beliefs we ho
  • elainej says
    hold dear.
  • elainej says
    While I agree this principal behaved excessively badly, I also understand they believe they acted according to their beliefs, with which
  • elainej says
    many do not agree.
  • 4/2012☆ stacy says
    I feel this principal is in violation of separation of government and church. This is NOT a church school but a public school
  • 4/2012☆ stacy says
    He, IMHO, did not handle this professionally
  • Cliotech says
    unbelievable! (s_tears)
  • 4/2012☆ stacy says
    peregrinator: you can bring your beliefs into a public place, but this is a school and this is supposed to be an educator, he should not
  • cobannon says
    As an educator, your beliefs need to be shelved at the door. We're here to educate our students,not judge them. That was way out of bounds
  • cobannon says
    It's a fairly conservative town where I work and I had students who tried to "witness" to me mainly because I never spoke of my religious
  • cobannon says
    beliefs in class. They took that to mean that I wasn't religious. School wasn't my place to discuss that with them.
  • 4/2012☆ stacy says
    our district went through a lawsuit that went all the way to the Supreme Court about a Bible story. The teacher won
  • elainej says
    I agree with you stacykasse. The principal and the supe stepped way over the line in their self-righteous zeal. But I also think it can
  • elainej says
    be difficult for some to balance beliefs and practice and what may be acceptable behavior in public.
  • elainej says
    now they (and others like them) are going to feel attacked and then they'll get defensive and then there is no opportunity to discuss
  • elainej says
    appropriate behavior in anything approximating reasonable conversation. OTOH, they might not be interested in reasonable converstaion.
  • 4/2012☆ stacy says
    and many will never trust a teacher, principal or superintendent again
  • LParisi says
    I have very firm beliefs about separation of church and state. The superintendent made decisions based on his beliefs..not the law.
  • Loonyhiker says
    all i can think of what "what in the world are they thinking!"
  • elainej says
    excellent point lparisi. In his role as superintendent, he has to uphold the law. If his beliefs conflict with the law, he should not be
  • elainej says
    in that position. And neither should the principal. People of faith, any faith, have to make conscious decisions about that intersection
  • elainej says
    of the professional and the personal.
  • kshelton asks
    and why does or should this surprise any of you?
  • kshelton says
    I do not have much faith in many Americans. I have faith in people like you all to educate and get to think about civil/human rights.
  • kshelton says
    I know this will not sit well with some of you, but I think this and religion are what is keeping America down. Not religious beliefs,
  • kshelton says
    but those that hide behind the veil of religion to serve a selfish purpose. The bible does not teach this junk, Jesus did not teach this
  • kshelton says
    What happened to Life, LIberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness. Not life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, only if you agree with me
  • crandall says
    Many teachers and the Principal in the school I spend 40% have religious articles on their desk/wall. IMHO this is fundamentally wrong.
  • crandall says
    it's a public school
  • crandall says
    when my children were in school, they had a 'mandatory' bachalaurette (SP) breakfast at graduation. I protested but still - 10 yrs later
  • crandall says
    get flack!
  • crandall says
    they still say prayers before and after sporting and banquet events at the school! It's just plain wrong.
  • megbg says
    crandall: I think we have to be careful...Separation of church & state does NOT mean that a person cannot believe, or have a religious item
  • megbg says
    on their desk. We cannot mandate one religion or have prayers at school events...of any religion.
  • crandall says
    maybe..but say I'm a Muslim child, in the Principal's office. There are all those artifacts of his religion..doesn't that seem out of place?
  • crandall says
    am I being overly sensitive?
  • kshelton says
    crandall is aboslutely 100% correct. Does not belong in schools unless it is a parochial school. Keep that and anything else along those l
  • kshelton says
    ines to yourself and your family
  • kshelton says
    you have to draw a clear distinctive line with this
  • kshelton asks
    what if a teacher has something that you do not agree with up? What do you say? Should you say anything? It is better to have nothing but
  • megbg says
    crandall: I don't think it should be hanging on the wall...but, otoh I think we do have to allow for some personal expression...
  • kshelton says
    educational items up. Schools are for teaching and learning only. Not for pushing ones beliefs onto their students
  • megbg says
    wearing a star of david, a mezzuzh (sp?) at doorway, prayer rug, etc. I realize this is a grey issue and not easily managed
  • kshelton says
    megbg I disagree with you. Not personal expression like this. Being a Lakers fan is one thing, but having religious artifacts up is another
  • kshelton says
    Ok here is a story for you. There was a teacher at one of my previous schools that taught US History
  • megbg says
    in a democracy one's rights should not interfere with another's rights.
  • kshelton says
    yes on his walls he had several posters of Che Guevara. He said the students need to fight their government and be just like him
  • kshelton says
    was that appropriate? I think it wasn't. He also had a picture of Hugo Chavez up
  • megbg says
    so, chocxtc I can have lakers shirts, posters etc all over but not a small nativity say at Christmas time? Explain the difference.
  • kshelton says
    again not appropriate at all. World History perhaps to some extent, but certainly no US History
  • megbg says
    chocxtc: I think anytime we, as educators, take our personal beliefs and opinions and try to make them the "right" one we are being
  • kshelton says
    sports teams are things that people can take or leave. A Nativity scene can be taken as offensive to anybody that is Jewish or a Jehovah's
  • kshelton says
    witness. Or how about a Muslim student
  • kshelton says
    I believe that if you have a Nativity scene you should also have at least a Menorah then
  • megbg says
    unethical. But, we are also people and should be allowed to have (in moderation) peronal artifacts. That said, we have to be very careful
  • megbg says
    to not cross that line
  • kshelton says
    this was a huge debate at my school last year since they did lots of Christmas things and nothing for Hanukah
  • kshelton says
    I was of the opinion that you do something for all or you do nothing. We are predominantly a Christian country, but to me tolerance,
  • kshelton says
    understanding, and respect for others beliefs begins with an acknowledgment of their culture
  • megbg says
    chocxtc: I am not talking about school wide displays. But say, on my personal desk, I have a small buddha..is that wrong? Now, if I have
  • kshelton says
    turn those types of things into a learning process and lesson rather than a demonstration of exclusion or superiority
  • megbg says
    one in the classroom or school public area, or if it is a focal point, that is different
  • kshelton says
    yes you are absolutely correct
  • megbg says
    as for holidays, I would love to see us talk about and celebrate all of them for all cultures in a school community
  • megbg hates
    that so often common sense is discarded and reasonableness is impossible.
  • kshelton says
    and ultimately you and I will agree on this. It should be more about sharing and learning.
  • crandall says
    when I taught K, my literature during holiday months were Jewish,Muslim, and Christain. Many parents questioned , but I stuck with it.
  • kshelton says
    good for you crandall. And I would have been right by your side fighting them on that!!!! Believe that!!!
  • megbg says
    crandall: nothing bad EVER comes from learning about others. Wish more people felt that way.
  • crandall says
    in my wing I was known as the Kwanza Queen..
  • megbg says
    I'll be the first to try and learn a new language or about a new culture. What we don't know about each other is what keeps us apart.
  • LParisi
    chocxtc Having a menorah does not make a nativity scene alright. There are so many other religions not covered here.
  • LParisi
    chocxtc Having a menorah does not make having a nativity alright.
  • LParisi
    This is not a gray area. Religious icons do not belong in a public school. Prayer does not belong in a public school.
  • LParisi
    But I think swearing on a bible does not belong in court, saying that we are one nation under God does not belong in the pledge, and
  • LParisi
    our money should not say In God we Trust.
  • LParisi
    Where is the religious freedom in all of that?
  • kshelton says
    laprisi your right. But with my student population that covers everybody if you have both
  • kshelton says
    wow LParisi looks like that is yet another thing I would agree with you on. Keep it out of court, off our money, and out of the pledge.
  • kshelton says
    it should be a simple matter of personal choice, end of story
  • kshelton says
    the line between separation of church and state is greyed to the point it has become indecipherable
  • kwhobbes says
    interesting, hmmm. I'd say that if you are not going to allow for personal expression in one area, religion, then you do it in all areas.
  • kwhobbes says
    No religious symbols, sports teams, favourite sayings or famous people or..... As for the money or pledge, then you are destroying the basis
  • kwhobbes says
    upon which your country fought against the oppression of the British, the lives of those who first founded the country.
  • kwhobbes says
    If you try to sterilize all that you have to please everyone, will you please anyone? And why do you have to remove the founding ideals
  • kwhobbes says
    in order to make things "fit" today. You or others may not believe in God but, to the founding members it was crucial to the creation of the
  • kwhobbes says
    country. It was part of the founding fabric of the country. So often, we take historical context and try to apply it to now. It doesn't work
  • kwhobbes says
    To be sterile neutral is as bad as zealous zealots. From where does the moral fabric of the nation come that will defend the rights of the
  • kwhobbes says
    weak, poor, disadvantaged, ill, down-trodden, oppressed, children, foreigners, outcasts as well as everyone else?
  • mindelei says
    RE: Menora & Nativity, just "covering the student population" is not enough. We should be exposing our students to all that is out there,
  • mindelei says
    not just what they see on a daily basis.
  • mindelei says
    To clarify: religious icons should not be in public schools. But I think kids should learn about other peoples' religions. It's healthy.
  • mindelei says
    Do I think we should teach people religion? No. But we should teach the facts about religions.
  • mindelei says
    As for this principal in the south: his actions were deplorable.
  • kshelton says
    thanks for your opinion kwhobbes. Not sure I agree with everything you said, but I do understand your point
  • LParisi
    mindelei I do believe in teaching religions. Teaching leads to respecting.
  • LParisi
    kwhobbes I'm not sure I agree that taking it out sends us down the road to moral hell. I do think we need to teach morals & civil rights
  • LParisi
    I don't think we need to do it in the context of religion. I am raising my daughter with no organized religion in her life (long story there
  • LParisi
    not worth getting into) but I am not raising her without morals. She is a kind, considerate, spiritual child (most of the time
  • LParisi
    she is, afterall, also a teenager).
  • LParisi
    Our founding fathers also believed women weren't smart enough to vote, blacks should be slaves, and overall, Americans were too stupid to..
  • LParisi
    make decisions about president (hence the electoral college). Some things are not worth keeping.
  • 4/2012☆ stacy says
    wow...this definitely hit a nerve with lots of us.
  • LParisi
    I love this conversation! Hopefully I am not insulting anyone. Trying to be honest but considerate. Haven't called anyone names yet. ;-)
  • kwhobbes says
    LParisi - that is true that we don't need to keep it all but morals and values are the foundation of the world religions, the extreme
  • kwhobbes says
    actions of some are not necessarily based on the foundation of the religion that they use. Organized religion is only part of the religious
  • kwhobbes says
    package and can lead to the zealous zealots who are extreme. The whole idea that you mention your daughter's spiritual side suggest that
  • kwhobbes says
    although there is no organized religion in her life, there are the basic tenants religious belief which bind societies through moral and
  • kwhobbes says
    values that they all can follow. Organized religions and a religious belief are not the same but, to get rid of religious belief can lead
  • LParisi
    But aren't religious icons from organized religions?
  • kwhobbes says
    to "anything goes" which, unfortunately, has been demonstrated a few times through history.
  • kwhobbes says
    no. The cross is symbol of christianity - not an icon of any one religion.
  • LParisi
    And doesn't just mentioning one God sort of void religions likeConfusionism and other Eastern religions.
  • LParisi
    Christianity is a religion. And it's not mine. So I don't want to see it in any public building that I support with my tax dollars.
  • LParisi
    And not being of that religion is not the reason why I don't want to see it.
  • LParisi
    I teach in a district with many Eastern religious children. They don't use crosses either.
  • LParisi
    And actually, the cross was pagan first.
  • LParisi
    Although really its from the latin word for crucifix meaning crossroads sign.
  • LParisi
    Ok...I digressed...sorry
  • kwhobbes
    it was but it was still part of a belief system that was followed by people.
  • kwhobbes
    just as various other symbols - but you asked about icons.
  • kwhobbes
    icons are from organized religions
  • kwhobbes
    christianity is not an organized religion but a particular belief.
  • LParisi
    Yes, they are..so do they have a place in a public building?
  • LParisi
    Even if everyone in the building practices the same religion and uses the same icons?
  • kwhobbes
    Icons - such as ????
  • LParisi
    Christmas trees, scriptures on walls, crosses
  • kwhobbes
    depends. I do not find it offensive when I go into the elders office on the reserve, a public building, and he has his display of eagle's
  • LParisi
    And, hypocritically of me, I don't think I would find that offensive either. Now why is that?
  • kwhobbes
    I am mindful that, as part of his culture, he has a position respect.
  • LParisi
    Maybe because I see it more as history..not religion. But it is religion.
  • LParisi
    Ok...so do we make exceptions for culture?
  • kwhobbes
    So, as a christian, I don't ever use that as part of what I do in the school but it is the foundation of who I am as a person & therefore
  • LParisi
    And can a Christmas tree be considered culture?
  • kwhobbes
    I need to act and respect people based on those beliefs. The cross, although small, reminds ME of what I need to do to others.
  • kwhobbes
    The Christmas tree, as far as I'm concerned, has lost all it's relation to anything religious. It's a place where you find presents.
  • LParisi
    But do you have the right to display it in your office, where children come?
  • LParisi
    Doesn't that now impose a belief on them?
  • LParisi
    Sort of implied?
  • kwhobbes
    Why? It only imposes a belief if it is used for such. Does it matter that I also pray at my desk?
  • kwhobbes
    Or that there are parents who meet early in the morning to pray for our school and students?
  • kwhobbes
    I would allow native children to wear their hair in braids. I don't make others remove their headgear, a symbol of their religion.
  • LParisi
    As long as it is not done in school, it is not a problem. And if you pray in private, not a problem.
  • LParisi
    Nor do we.
  • LParisi
    You are making me think tonight Kelly. :-)
  • LParisi
    So where is the line you can't cross? When do you start violating someone's civil rights?
  • kwhobbes
    Ah, but why can't it be done in public school - it is public. Do we make all children
  • kwhobbes
    all be clones - neutral in hope of offending no one or, through discussion and dialogue, do we see that, indeed, we are much the same and
  • kwhobbes
    the "symbols" are all just part of who we are as people.
  • kwhobbes
    That our morals and values, once you strip away the organized religion aspect, are very similar and can, in fact, draw us together.
  • LParisi
    So where do we stop? Do we allow children to come to school and lead a prayer vigil?
  • LParisi
    Do we allow a group of students to pray in the cafeteria before eating?
  • LParisi
    Do we have a moment of silence in the morning, clearly the time to pray to God.
  • kwhobbes
    Of course we allow a group of students to pray before eating. The moment of silence - why is it offensive?
  • kwhobbes
    Are we not trying to teach tolerance and acceptance and is not spirituality part of who we are?
  • kwhobbes
    Why are we so offended by people demonstrating their beliefs? To understand them, do we not have to understand the whole person - not just
  • LParisi
    No...spirituality is not part of who we are. Not all of us. I can be very moral, believe in right and wrong, and not believe in God at all.
  • kwhobbes
    I didn't say God - I said a spirituality - something that binds us all - something bigger than each of us.
  • LParisi
    So I do not want spirituality to be part of school. I understand it is part of life for some but not all and should not be brought into
  • LParisi
    I know not everyone believes there is a something bigger that binds us all.
  • LParisi
    What about those people? Can't we teach about religion...teach moralsteach the global connectedness of us all,without bringing spirituality
  • kwhobbes
    How can we have a global connectedness if we aren't willing to expand beyond just "I"?
  • kwhobbes
    You may not believe in a spiritual connectedness but why do you get to dictate what is the norm?
  • LParisi
    Global connectedness has nothing to do with spirituality. The first is that I am responsible for all. The second is that a larger being is.
  • kwhobbes
    So you aren't offended? But what if it offends me? Are you right? What set of morales or values are being used?
  • LParisi
    That didn't come out right. Makes me sound like God. LOL
  • LParisi
    Well, let's go back to the Constitution...it's how this conversation started, afterall.
  • LParisi
    The Constitution (I know you are not in the US but I think our laws are pretty similar)
  • kwhobbes
    And that's the slippery slope we tread by not trying to offend anyone. I know who what you mean ;-)
  • LParisi says
    nothing about spirituality
  • kwhobbes says
    our freedom of individual rights does discuss religion infact!
  • LParisi
    shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof
  • LParisi
    Do we prohibit the Muslim's free exercise of religion when we hang a cross in the room?
  • LParisi
    Do we prohibit the athiests free exercise when we have amoment of silence to pray
  • kwhobbes says
    do we prohibit any other's religion freedom when we allow someone to wear their turban in the room?
  • LParisi
    Do we establish a specific religion when we put a Christmas tree in a public building?
  • kwhobbes says
    Or allow them to wear braids? Or have eagles' feathers?
  • LParisi
    The child wearing a turban is not in position of power in the room.
  • kwhobbes says
    no, but the parent who wears one is and, if he meets my children anywhere, then what's the deal?
  • LParisi
    And should a teacher wear a turban, I guess he would have to be careful not to...
  • LParisi
    wow...I don't even know what to say
  • kwhobbes says
    I don't agree with what either the principal or superintendent did! But their the zealous zealots I mention.
  • LParisi
    Public buildings are funded w/ my money..that's the difference. when a public building decides to display an icon, a statement has been made
  • LParisi
    And they truly believe they are right. How do we know we are not zealots who truly believe we are right?
  • kwhobbes
    So, if there is no icon on display in a public part of the school, then what's the problem?
  • kwhobbes
    well, then we have to decide - do we zealots go to war with those zealots - which has historically been the case - or do we look for another
  • kwhobbes
    way to do things. Do we begin to dialogue - knowing that we aren't going to get anywhere with some.
  • LParisi
    And that is why I have such a problem with organized religion. LOL
  • LParisi
    I feel that way about this dialogue...but you have really made me think tonight.
  • kwhobbes
    I can agree about the public display of religious icons in public areas of the school. But in my office .......
  • LParisi
    Where I work, we have many different religions and some very religious students. We walk a very thin line in school all the time
  • kwhobbes
    I guess it comes down to what I do with the display of the object.
  • LParisi
    Do you allow children into your office? do parents come in? Could I?
  • LParisi
    Then it is not public.
  • kwhobbes
    of course you could come in but I don't TAKE kids to my office and I meet with parents in a neutral area - better relations that way ;-)
  • LParisi
    Do tax payers pay for your office?
  • kwhobbes
    sure they do. But the building is owned by the School Division - it's not a public buiding!
  • kwhobbes
    many people have that misconception of schools - up here anyway. It may be bought by public money but it is owned by the SD. It's not
  • LParisi
    Ok..that's a Canadian thing I don't understand. Here, all school buildings are public, including the administration buildings.
  • kwhobbes
    so, all school buildings are neutral - so as long as no one in the public building displays anything of religious or spiritual significance
  • kwhobbes
    all students, staff and anyone coming into the building - it is a neutral place.
  • LParisi
    I think so. That doesn't mean we don't allow individuals to practice as needed...fasting, praying quietly, etc.
  • kwhobbes
    I can handle that. But I want no displays of favourite teams as that causes a problem - especially if an adult displays it - it is
  • LParisi
    Especially if it is not your favorite team. ;-)
  • kwhobbes
    or could be a problem.
  • LParisi
    And, now, Kelly, I have to go to bed. You must make it to my Conversations show some Sunday morning. You'd add some intelligent discourse.
  • kwhobbes says
    good night. As for intelligent discourse - I have a few parents who would disagree. One even told me it was like talking to a wall! ;-)
  • LParisi
    LOL so sorry to hear that. I enjoyed the conversation.
  • TeachaKidd says
    Another proud moment in Florida history. :-(
  • n2teaching shares
    Wow! Sorry I missed this conversation. Go out to eat & miss all the fun.
  • n2teaching thinks
    for me, this was a legal issue. What the principal did was illegal, & you can't wrap religion around rotten meat and call it good.
  • kshelton says
    wow is all I can say. WOW
  • kwhobbes thinks
    that the conversation was great. The principal in question was WRONG on so many levels! It's guys like him that give us a bad name!
  • roswellsgirl
    having a hard time sharing my thoughts in plurk form.
  • ✿honeymic wonders
    about what was said earlier about our founding fathers' beliefs. I've heard both ways. We read Ben Franklin's biog. in college and it was
  • ✿honeymic wonders
    pretty clear he had doubts about religion. Jefferson made his own bible, right?
  • ✿honeymic asks
    PLEASE take a few minutes to listen to the link above. It goes along so well w/this discussion!
  • ✿honeymic says
    I love the balance and practicality the speaker promotes to settle these types of complex "gray" areas.
  • ✿honeymic says
    I think when we insist on black or white issues we grow further apart.
  • ✿honeymic says
    Compromise is really what our country was built on, right? That's what we need to remember, I think.
  • ✿honeymic thinks
    When you're up late enough it's easier to make your point! :-D
  • roswellsgirl
    Thinking of public meaning all people. Seems wrong that public means taking away what makes people individuals.
  • roswellsgirl
    I have a right to be who I am even as a teacher. Just as we fight for the right for our students to be who they are.
  • roswellsgirl
    I don't see being Hindu, Muslim, Jewish or Christian in public places as being offensive or wrong.
  • roswellsgirl
    Separation of Church and State has to do with no one belief group being the governing body of our country. It is not about taking away
  • roswellsgirl
    people's rights to live their faith in public.
  • roswellsgirl
    This is different than religious symbols placed in public places that represent people as a whole.
  • roswellsgirl
    Not sure that I am making any sense. Just as we all said it was wrong to insist on someone not speaking their native language in public,
  • roswellsgirl
    I think that it would be wrong for others to insist that we not live our faith in public places.
  • roswellsgirl
    Students need real. I am not talking about pushing my faith on anyone else, but I should be able to live my faith.
  • LParisi
    roswellsgirl I agree. I just feel that as soon as we bring it into school and hang it on a wall...
  • LParisi
    or, as in the article, make decisions based on YOUR belief, than we moved into belief being the governing body. Yes?
  • LParisi
    BTW...YOUR meant a general your not specifically you, Martha. :-)
  • joelzehring thinks
    the FA principal overstepped his bounds
  • joelzehring thinks
    educators have a limited scope of control: academics, behavior, health, and attendance
  • joelzehring thinks
    the taunting should have been punished, not the girl's preference
  • joelzehring
    students and educators should be able to express their beliefs as long as that expression doesn't observably hinder 1 of the 4 areas
  • joelzehring
    as for christ-followers: "Preach the gospel at all times -- If necessary, use words." -- Saint Francis of Assisi
  • McTeach says
    Or in the words of my Native American ancestors, "Don't tell me what you believe, show me."
  • McTeach says
    Having grown up in the San Francisco Bay Area, I've never really given homosexuality a second thought. Who we love is determined by our
  • McTeach says
    heart. Not our head.
  • roswellsgirl
    I believe the principal was totally in the wrong on this one.
  • roswellsgirl
    Just as he would have been wrong to for the principal to pass judgment on her based on her faith.
  • roswellsgirl
    LParisi I agree with you. Living our faith does not mean judging others or pushing our faith on others.

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