| RoslinPetion | maybe the answer to handling content theft is to be proactive instead of reactive. Not that I have a genius, foolproof plan here but... |
Oct 29, 2009 -
10:37PM
| RoslinPetion | maybe the answer to handling content theft is to be proactive instead of reactive. Not that I have a genius, foolproof plan here but... |
| RoslinPetion | instead of trying to punish and go after thieves, why not create a system that encourages/rewards legit creators |
| RoslinPetion | I've long thought that a well-organized content creator guild with a set system of rules would be a positive thing for our community |
| Gabby Doololly | interesting, Roslin. I'd like to hear more about how you see the group functioning. |
| Wilted Rose | and who would proved the encouragement/rewards |
| Gabby Doololly | i had an idea after one of your plurks a few months ago about the use of ill-gotten photosourcing |
| ChezNabob | I have thought a lot about this kind of idea too. One of the biggest problems with the issue of content theft is that creators... |
| ChezNabob | ...well some creators...have no credibility |
| ChezNabob | They piss and moan about being ripped off in SL, all the while they use pirated softwware to make their content. |
| Gabby Doololly | something like a protected repository for creators to submit their sources to for verification of legitimacy, but... |
| ChezNabob | A guild is a great idea if a code of ethics is developed that all members MUST adhere to. |
| Gabby Doololly | that would require someone above reproach to manage and monitor it |
| ChezNabob | Yup |
| Gabby Doololly | the end result though would be a "certified original work" or whatever |
| RoslinPetion | exactly, sort of like a 'made in america' tag on your clothing |
| RoslinPetion | and one could encourage shopping at certified shops, maybe have special sales, events, build marketing around it all |
| RoslinPetion | I've been wanting to do this forever but I just never find the time to organize it |
| ChezNabob | You and me both |
| ChezNabob | I've thought about this seal idea too. Problem is, how do you keep it from being swiped and used in the shops of content rippers? |
| RoslinPetion | create a special script that is activated upon touch? |
| Gabby Doololly | it would be a huge undertaking but if managed well, and marketed, you reward creators and consumers alike for supporting legit brands |
| RoslinPetion | ok gabby, we know you can do it, now get to work |
| Stephanie | says | good point there Chez. |
| RoslinPetion | well, I hate herd mentality and witch hunts but maybe we can do positive peer pressure. Like I've said before, plenty of residents have ... |
| RoslinPetion | said they don't care if the content they have is ripped in some way. They don't see it as 'real' theft. THAT is more of a danger than... |
| RoslinPetion | the thieves themselves. |
| Prairie | I really love this, Roslin. It puts things in a proactive and positive light. Rather than creating resentment and making people feel used |
| Prairie | and helpless. This gives people back their power and ability to remember that ultimately they can't control the thieves, only themselves |
| Gabby Doololly | I don't mind at all working on it, but it would take more than one person to pull it together |
| Siyu | says | I agree, and I'd LOVE to see a guild/group created around artists who have such integrity, I imagined it like a more limited Fashcon almost |
| Siyu | says | but I like the idea of going bigger |
| Siyu | says | the problem is the hardest workers and those most dedicated to their art have the least amount of time to do this XD |
| Gabby Doololly | and I'm probably in trouble now as just last night i promised Code i would cut back my project load |
| ChezNabob | And Gabby's point about being above reproach is a critical one. It goes beyond legalities and comes down to ethics... |
| ChezNabob | ...which can sometimes be gray areas. That's where things start to get sticky. |
| Catty | says | i think this is a great idea....a sort of "good housekeeping stamp of approval" type thing but...how to implement,and who decides? and |
| Catty | says | isnt there a rumor of LL doing something like this ? |
| Turnip | says | I like rewards! |
| ChezNabob | I'm not holding my breath on anything LL says when it comes to IP rights or any remotely related issue. |
| Catty | says | yes true  but I like to keep on hoping lol. |
| ChezNabob | There was some mention of such a group. I heard it nearly 2 years ago...2 YEARS AGO! |
| ChezNabob | And still nothing from LL. |
| Catty | says | it seems to me that would be the perfect compromise for something like that, where we would have to register with it and such...anything |
| Catty | says | else resident driven has too much cloudy/grey areas and bias/competition/favorites etc will come into play too easily, at least by everyone |
| Catty | says | that isnt in on it |
| Catty | says | (as they will scream that they are not in it for those reasons) |
| MatthewAnthony | says | this was tried back in 2004 and didn't really go anywhere, but I supported it then and would again now |
| Gabby Doololly | Matthew, can you tell us some of the problems/pitfalls of the 2004 effort? |
| Catty | says | i would support it , totally |
| Cajsa or Oscar | says | The idea of a Content Creator Registry or SL Business Registry is appealing, but I have some concerns. The biggest concern is about language |
| Cajsa or Oscar | says | and the ability of non-English speaking content creators to navigate the process. One of the reasons for the boundless creativity of SL is |
| Cajsa or Oscar | says | there are so few barriers to entry - and this creates one. The second is around credibility and bias. No matter how impeachable your |
| Cajsa or Oscar | says | committee/registry may be up front, once they make some decisions against some creators, they will be suspect by portions of the community |
| Ivey Firefly | The problem for me with something like this would be WHO is to be the judge of what is original/acceptable content |
| Cajsa or Oscar | says | simply because of the I know So&So and know they would never.... syndrome. We all know our friends would not steal, right? Yet people steal |
| Cajsa or Oscar | says | The only solution I would see is for the decisions to be made by people who are employed by LL - which they won't do. |
| Ivey Firefly | and what good does it do the thousands of shoppers who have no idea who even makes what they buy or cares |
| Cajsa or Oscar | says | The third concern is about agreeing up from what original content means. To some, it's only handdrawn stuff, to others is only photosourcing |
| Ivey Firefly | I do completely agree with being proactive and supporting designers, but what I'm afraid of is something like this becoming elitist or... |
| Cajsa or Oscar | says | to others it's ok to buy full perms sculpts and yet to others, that's not original content. The actual definition of original content is too |
| Ivey Firefly | separatist to the point of exclusion for reasons other than being original |
| Cajsa or Oscar | says | loosey-goosey. And then of course , there are those who want to see the software licenses too. (Mine is licensed, btw) |
| Cajsa or Oscar | says | I wish I had a solution - perhaps some technological solution needs to be found like digital watermarks in textures |
| Cajsa or Oscar | says | I don't know if that's even possible, but it sounds possible. |
| Cajsa or Oscar | says | micro-embedded teensy-weensy secret digital watermarks. so you can go AHA!!! that's Ivey's watermark!!! |
| Ivey Firefly | what worries me is a committee turning into a witchhunt group that examines every design for originality |
| Gabby Doololly | All valid points...so much to think about...but I am really excited about the prospect of coming up with something that is proactive |
| Gabby Doololly | and doesn't smack of a witch hunt. |
| Ivey Firefly | a group comvenes to examine an outfit I made to make sure it doesnt too closely resemble someone else's or uses a template or any number... |
| Ivey Firefly | of reasons and all of a sudden my name is mud in the community...an extreme example but easily could happen |
| Ivey Firefly | I'm playing devil's advocate here lol |
| Cajsa or Oscar | says | well, see, that's what I mean by defining original content. It's very easy for outfits to innocently resemble others. After all, according |
| Cajsa or Oscar | says | to the experts there are only 7 basic plots and millions of novels, with clothing, there's only a few basic pieces, and lots of options but |
| Cajsa or Oscar | says | still - sometimes things resemble or have similar inspiration. |
| Cajsa or Oscar | says | and we have seen witchhunts even on ponytail height. |
| ChezNabob | These are all valid points and they, plus a few others, are reasons (for me at least) that I haven't pursued something like this in the past |
| ChezNabob | I've talked a lot about this kind of thing with several people, but the hurdles seem so overwhelming. |
| ChezNabob | I think it's needed, but I also have a RL business tha doesn't just run itself, and what little time I have left after that is devoted to |
| ChezNabob | business in SL. If only there were more hours in the day. |
| ChezNabob | As for the definition of "original" content, that's what I was alluding to in regards to ethics. |
| ChezNabob | Some people will say you shouldn't use anything you didn't make yourself. |
| ChezNabob | Others say as long as you have a license to use something, be it a photo, texture, prim, etc., then it's ok. |
| ChezNabob | Ethics are such a gray area, and people in the leadership of such a group would have to have the patience of Job and the wisdom of Solomon.. |
| ChezNabob | ...to make it work. |
| RoslinPetion | yeah, so I guess we can all just stand around and say, 'no, you do it'  I do think just talking about it and what it would mean is a ... |
| RoslinPetion | good start though. Even if 'we' don't do anything, perhaps this dialogue will inspire someone else to make it happen |
| Catty | says | yes talking is good, it also helps us figure what needs to be done and perhaps a lightbulb will go off somewhere along the way |
| Yvette | Great idea. Perfect, no (SL is complaint driven). but without trying nothing is achieved. |
| ChezNabob | Ok...you're all in charge of making this happen. Get back to me when you're finished so I can throw a monkey wrench into the whole thing. |
| Yvette | If you have a good enough designer base, you'll probably find that you'll have enough geographic diversity to deal with translation issues. |
| Yvette | If Catty's in, I volunteer to help.  I can translate into Spanish, help recruit other translators. |
| Catty | says | yay Yvette!!!!  |
| Catty | says | we could call it...a Peer Review Board or ...Designer's Peer Review |
| Catty | says | or...something |
| Yvette | Hrm...have a roundtable or something. Cajsa raises good points, but properly organized and defined, your may be able to minimize them. |
| ChezNabob | Having "review board" in the title smacks of...I dunno...I could see where people might see that as cliquish or overly judgmental. |
| ChezNabob | Having some kind of panel or council is part of it, sure, but the overall idea would be to establish a more professional code of conduct. |
| ChezNabob | Like maybe "Creator's Guild"...i dunno...meh |
| Ivey Firefly | If its going to be a "review board" I think I'll take a pass. Good luck though/ I'm definitely not up for open critique and judgement by |
| Ivey Firefly | a panel, no matter who they are. |
| Ivey Firefly | If it were some kind of creator support group or league, I would have no issue with something like that but no one is going to determine... |
| Ivey Firefly | what I can and cannot make or sell based on their own personal ethics, morality etc |
| ChezNabob | Yeah, see I think it's really more about establishing something that says here's how you should conduct yourself as a content creator in SL. |
| ChezNabob | I don't think saying what you can or can't produce would be part of it. For me it's about taking a stand and saying here's a best practices |
| ChezNabob | code that would tell everyone you operate in an ethical manner |
| ChezNabob | I'm not sure what that would look like or how it would be implemented. |
| RoslinPetion | well, setting up a panel would be just the first step in organizing a group. I don't know that it would be what we would want when it... |
| RoslinPetion | comes to the actual 'seal of approval' so to speak. We could set up a code of ethics, have creators and other fashion industry individuals.. |
| RoslinPetion | who agree with the ethics essentially opt in to the group and allow anyone in based on their word. |
| RoslinPetion | if it's for you, great, if not, then don't join. We wouldn't go AFTER those who don't adhere to it. You opt in. |
| Catty | says | that is a good point, on the review thing. and yes I agree its not about what you do, its ...is it legit or is it not. |
| Gabby Doololly | I think something like this can be of benefit, I like the proactive and more positive approach, but, as i've shared with Roslin, |
| Gabby Doololly | it is something that will take time to discuss, plan, manage and market, I'm not a creator, but I'd be lost without all of you who are! |
| Gabby Doololly | So I will help in any way that I can  |
| Gabby Doololly | And I don't see this as something where the "panel" or whoever decides what is and is not worthy, but only verifies that their content is |
| Gabby Doololly | indeed legitimately created and or derived from legitimately obtained sources |
| Gabby Doololly | Jesus, Dan, don't make me go shopping for new avatars! |
| Catty | says | yes i agree, it is us at members of the sl community that spot things as being not legit and often are ready to blog it etc, but instead, we |
| Catty | says | focusing on the positive, creators that are legit, use legit sources etc |
| Shelly~♥~ | will | there be pie? |
| Annyka | says | I dunno. this idea's been floated before and it generated more hostility than support. |
| Annyka | says | People see any sort of "seal of approval" system as established merchants trying to lock out competition. |
| Annyka | says | Something like this would need a completely impartial body to run it. Creators are too invested to be seen as impartial |
| Annyka | says | Even Linden Labs gets accused of favoritism all the time. It would be worse for a merchant guild |
| Cajsa or Oscar | says | Perhaps there is a different approach - one that has its failings since it's purely honor system, but one that has worked to change laws and |
| Cajsa or Oscar | says | and attitudes on gay rights - I worked for a gay rights group for a few years that had a Fair Workplace Project and got employers to pledge |
| Cajsa or Oscar | says | to have a fair workpace for gay employees since there was no possibility of passing ENDA at the time. All the employers did was sign a |
| Cajsa or Oscar | says | Fair Workplace Pledge, they did nto submit their personnel policies for review or anything. We took them at their word. They got a little |
| Cajsa or Oscar | says | seal for their windows/web sites that said NIKE is a Fair Workplace Employer or Adidas is a FAir Workplace Employer, etc and each year there |
| Cajsa or Oscar | says | would be a party honoring a couple FWP employers. After there were 200 companies - the state changed health insurance laws to require health |
| Cajsa or Oscar | says | insurance companies to offer DP benefits, etc. - ENDA passed, and so on. It changed attitudes of creators by peer pressure and honor system |
| Cajsa or Oscar | says | We could just have a Code of Ethics that folks sign and they get a sign that they subscribe to those ethics and there would be peer pressure |
| Cajsa or Oscar | says | on customers to shop at stores that subscribe to those ethics. Now, it's trust-based and may be abused by a few, but the key to fighting |
| Cajsa or Oscar | says | content theft is in changing consumer attitudes, not in changing content creators. It's consumers' willingness to buy stolen content that |
| Cajsa or Oscar | says | keeps content theft successful and profitable |
| Annyka | says | that sounds less contentious, Casja |
| SarahTheRed | I'm interested in the concept, wherever it ends up. |
| SarahTheRed | My one concern was hot to prove software licensing w/o revealing RL info, but Cajsa's Code of Ethics takes care of that issue. |
| ChezNabob | What Cajsa is suggesting is pretty close to hitting the sweet spot, imo...at least at the foundation. |
| Faery | says | some great thinking going on here. I'm all for being proactive, as long as it doesn't end up some sort of |
| Faery | says | highschool "cool kids consortium", I'm in. I am very supportive of being about legitimate software too, to me, you cannot cry that you've |
| Faery | says | been ripped, if your stuff has been made using ripped software, that just smacks of hypocrisy. |
| RoslinPetion | Cajsa articulated it all beautifully |
| RoslinPetion | I don't think anyone should have to prove anything really, what I want and I think Chez and others seem to fall in line with, is to... |
| RoslinPetion | change the culture of creators, shoppers, bloggers, and others in the sl content creation community. |
| Cajsa or Oscar | says | I was going to refer you to the Fair Workplace Project section of my former employer's web site, but...they have succeeded so well |
| Cajsa or Oscar | says | that the project has ended....and all they have is a sentence in their history saying that the 34 year struggle for workplace equity ended |
| Cajsa or Oscar | says | with passage of the Oregon Equality Act - so... since it's a rare thing when any issue is won effectively enough to end a campaign |
| Evie Miles | says | Cajsa's idea would be MUCH faster to implement, is less complicated, has less potential pitfalls and would absolutely spread awareness. |
| Evie Miles | says | I like it a lot. |
| RoslinPetion | keep the ideas coming guys. I figure we could just let things stew and the an official group together in the new year. |
| Yvette | Presumably the seal would not remain if the store is caught selling copybotted items? |
| Yvette | I completely support the spirit of positivity and inclusiveness, but would encourage some hard thinking about how the organization will.. |
| Yvette | deal with rogue situations. Also, in a world where seals and shtuff can be copied, replicated, perhaps a website where ppl can see a full |
| Yvette | list of participating stores, etc? Also, just a thought on having ways for ppl to modify membership if they leave SL, change names, etc |
| MatthewAnthony | says | for some reason, this disappeared off my timeline until I got back on mobile. I'll share details on the 2004 effort when I get home |
| SarahTheRed | It would be interesting to see some kind of classification, like say a green seal for all originaal content, and a blue seal for those |
| SarahTheRed | that use legal sources, such as purchased sculpties, etc. |
| thunderclap | i agree and will sign on. |
| Cajsa or Oscar | says | I like the green/blue seal idea - as there is such potential for conflict in defining that code with the absolutists who cry foul on |
| Cajsa or Oscar | says | anything photosourced, etc. |
| MatthewAnthony | so back in 2004, something very similar was planned -- back then, it was actually a gold seal |
| MatthewAnthony | it was going to be scripted so that it was fullbright when that person was a member, but if they decided to leave |
| MatthewAnthony | or were discovered using GLIntercepted textures (that was the big scare then, not copybot), the glow could be killed |
| MatthewAnthony | so people knew if they saw a non-fullbright seal, that person was caught using ripped textures |
| MatthewAnthony | other than that, though, what is being planned here sounds extremely similar -- it's kind of scary, actually |
| MatthewAnthony | it ultimately failed because of bickering between creators, plus a lack of adoption by many of the large designers of the time |
| Cajsa or Oscar | says | This will only work if it's on the honor system - because once you have arbiters of who is and who is not ethical, it will fracture. People |
| Cajsa or Oscar | says | perceive and receive information based on social networking and group association/friendship. There are brain scans showing that our brains |
| Cajsa or Oscar | says | work differently and light up in different places depending on our alliance or nonalliance with the speaker - so...that's why disputes about |
| Cajsa or Oscar | says | theft break down by friendship and alliance - because we are wired that way. |
| Yvette | Not quite sure how it would work without some sort of repercussion for those who copybot. I can understand and agree that policing style.. |
| Yvette | or textures would be complicated if not impossible, but if the point is to encourage shoppers to patronize legit shops, the seal has to come |
| Yvette | with some sort of baseline compliance requirement. Copybotting, banning, successful DCMA? |
| SarahTheRed | I think it would be useful for those interested in this to begin drafting what they consider necessary parts of the code of ethics. |
| SarahTheRed | For example: both blue/green statements would include legitimately licensed software. Inspiration from sources OK, but direct imitation not. |
| SarahTheRed | Blue: all parts, including any source photos used, sculpties, etc, must be created entirely by the creator. Green: source photos and |
| SarahTheRed | patterns, sculpties, etc ok, but MUST legitimately purchased and within TOS of original artist. |
| SarahTheRed | Anything not covered here must be significantly different from inspiration source. |
| SarahTheRed | Oh, and no more Hello Kitty. There's no "I support IP rights, and I want Hello Kitty stuff." |
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