Beth Harte says Jul 17, 2008 09:56PM Screeching in from the Tour de France on his Masi Bike, I give you Tim Jackson & Social Media: It's the Conversation Stupid!
Tim Jackson Jul 18, 2008 01:57AM We're discussing Social Media and the importance of conversation tonight.
MackCollier says Jul 18, 2008 01:58AM Guys if you are viewing this on Plurk Page, make sure you refresh it manually, or you can follow TimJackson and watch it on timeline!
Tim Jackson Jul 18, 2008 01:58AM There has been a lot of recent debate over the issue of "Conversation vs Broadcast" communications.
Tim Jackson Jul 18, 2008 01:59AM Many of us here have discussed this particular dynamic relative to Twitter vs Plurk.
Tim Jackson Jul 18, 2008 01:59AM Where Plurk is viewed by many as more conversational and Twitter is seen as more of a broadcast tool.
MackCollier says Jul 18, 2008 01:59AM Tim, Twitter feels more 'broadcast' to me lately, Plurk seems more 'social'
Beth Harte says Jul 18, 2008 02:01AM why, thank you. Amazingly, I am getting more convos on Twitter...or at least more back & forth tweets.
JHipkin feels Jul 18, 2008 02:01AM twitter is more mini blog, as advertised, vs Plurk which is conversation
Beth Harte says Jul 18, 2008 02:02AM Tim, would you consider Twitter a traditional marketing application then?
Tim Jackson Jul 18, 2008 02:02AM Beth- I bet you are, after challenging the status qou- good for you!
JHipkin thinks Jul 18, 2008 02:02AM Twitter can have convo like a blog w/ comments but it's not as dynamic as Plurk
MackCollier says Jul 18, 2008 02:02AM ok Tim I saw this happen yesterday, but I think Plurk hold great potential 4 companies as a feedback mechanism, due 2 threaded conversations
Beth Harte says Jul 18, 2008 02:03AM But Jhipkin, the polite behavior of blogging is that you should respond to comments left. That doesn't happen on Twitter.
Tim Jackson Jul 18, 2008 02:03AM Beth- I think Twitter is very much an effective tool for broadcasting message, but less effective for engaging people.
servantofchaos says Jul 18, 2008 02:03AM and it is much harder to follow conversation on Twitter ... esp if you don't follow all the players
Tim Jackson Jul 18, 2008 02:03AM I agree Mack. I have certainly used those conversations to great effect on my blog.
AmberCadabra Jul 18, 2008 02:03AM Gavin, that's so true. I find myself scrambling to summize people and follow the whole thred
JHipkin says Jul 18, 2008 02:04AM bethharte too true, it's like a mini blog not the same. Also some broadcast which isn't bad just different
Tim Jackson Jul 18, 2008 02:04AM Here's a great example; this was our best year ever w/ Masi- 66% above our budgeted sales. I believe that SM plays a role.
AmberCadabra Jul 18, 2008 02:04AM I don't mind the sharing of great stuff. I mind people using it as a medium to brag about followers. *coughcoughscoblescoughcough*
MackCollier says Jul 18, 2008 02:05AM Tim do you have ANY way of tying ANY set percentage of those sales directly back to SM?
AmberCadabra Jul 18, 2008 02:05AM Tim, are you tracking any feedback about how people are hearing about you?
Beth Harte says Jul 18, 2008 02:05AM I had a lot of feedback that some folks don't like e-conversations. Do you think cos. would fall into that category? It's not comfortable?
servantofchaos says Jul 18, 2008 02:05AM TimJackson of course ... with so much conversation swirling around in an ambient way there is less need to interrupt
Tim Jackson Jul 18, 2008 02:05AM I still rely heavily on the feedback on my blog to help craft what I do with the brand- it is key to my plans.
Trinkit says Jul 18, 2008 02:06AM social media will always improve marketing. People want their friends to succeed. If you're a nameless company, noone cares.
AmberCadabra Jul 18, 2008 02:06AM BethHArte I think opening themselves up to honest feedback that they can't ignore is a big fear factor for most cos
Tim Jackson Jul 18, 2008 02:06AM Mack, I can't neatly quantify my claim, BUT I do hear frequently from consumers who say they saw something on blog that inspired purchase
MackCollier says Jul 18, 2008 02:06AM I still use Twitter to share links with my followers, that could be called broadcasting
AmberCadabra Jul 18, 2008 02:07AM Trinkit there's a lot to be said about the way SM humanizes companies.
MackCollier says Jul 18, 2008 02:07AM Tim I have talked to Dell about this as well, they are SURE that SM has helped, but can't get a specific number
Beth Harte says Jul 18, 2008 02:08AM AmberCadabra, agreed. But I got the sense that some people just don't like to converse online. Which is okay.
AmberCadabra Jul 18, 2008 02:08AM MackCollier I think of broadcasting as more self promotion. Tweeting on behalf of others is more sharing, IMO
JHipkin says Jul 18, 2008 02:07AM even in it's broadcast form it allows people / bloggers / marketers to put a personality out there
Donna Tocci Jul 18, 2008 02:08AM Tim - do people you talk with prefer one method of your SM empire over another? Blog, video, podcast, plurk etc?
Trinkit says Jul 18, 2008 02:08AM AmberCadabra exactly, and people are -in general- good and want other people to succeed, but, a company name alone abstracts the image.
Beth Harte says Jul 18, 2008 02:08AM Companies just can't ignore the fact that they will *need* to converse online sooner than later.
MackCollier says Jul 18, 2008 02:08AM Amber and Andre, I get what you mean, I dont consider it really 'broadcasting' as well
servantofchaos asks Jul 18, 2008 02:08AM so what comes first? do brands CREATE a conversation or RESPOND to one that has already started?
Tim Jackson Jul 18, 2008 02:09AM Yes, it is very hard to find exact numbers. But I do hear from consumers, retailers, distributors and sales reps who tell of things...
GHollingsworth says Jul 18, 2008 02:09AM JHipkin but what is a personality if there's nothing to engage with it?
JHipkin says Jul 18, 2008 02:09AM it's often the only chance a brand has to talk to a limited degree but talk to the interested
Beth Harte has Jul 18, 2008 02:09AM to agree with AmberCadabra: Tweeting on behalf of others is more sharing.
Trinkit says Jul 18, 2008 02:09AM a recent trend online is the hatred of corporations and large companies. Large companies protecting themself and neglecting customers.
GHollingsworth says Jul 18, 2008 02:09AM I think brands can initiate, but they need to listen and understand the conversation/criticism first.
Trinkit says Jul 18, 2008 02:10AM companies that become more personal are more trustworthy as they -seem- to have the good of their customer at heart (IE they listen)
Tim Jackson Jul 18, 2008 02:10AM Donna- (HI!)- I hear from all camps. People who like all, some, one. It's tough, though I think the blog is the most popular.
MackCollier says Jul 18, 2008 02:10AM Tim have you seen any increased SM activity among your competitors?
miketempleton says Jul 18, 2008 02:10AM I think that brands need to LISTEN and RESPOND to conversation first, then start their own later on.
Trinkit says Jul 18, 2008 02:10AM So, when a company reveals itself as vulnerable and 'human' it does alot, social media does alot to present that.
acnatta says Jul 18, 2008 02:10AM a big part of the conversation is listening to figure out what's going on
Te-ge says Jul 18, 2008 02:10AM Trinkit I think in large part it's because those companies decided customer service wasn't worth the cost, and forgot the hidden cost
GHollingsworth says Jul 18, 2008 02:10AM the hatred of corporations isn't new, it's just more vocal now with far more tools to spread the message
Tim Jackson Jul 18, 2008 02:11AM Gavin- PERFECT question! A great way to start is to get involved in a conversation and grow from there. My friend Donna knows about that.
Trinkit says Jul 18, 2008 02:11AM Teeg two sides to it really, but, software is a great example of why there's a lot of distrust versus companies.
servantofchaos says Jul 18, 2008 02:11AM bethharte ... so with TimJackson -- how did that start? Was it MasiGuy first or was it responding to already active discussion/need
miketempleton says Jul 18, 2008 02:11AM people are already talking about companies, so now its their responsibility to listen, share and converse with those people.
Tim Jackson Jul 18, 2008 02:11AM Mack- yes, there has been a little growth in the industry, but it is still very small so far.
Trinkit says Jul 18, 2008 02:11AM Teeg EA is a large game company, that distributes PC games with rather horrible DRM, legit users suffer the DRM, the pirates that steal
GHollingsworth says Jul 18, 2008 02:12AM corporate transparency builds trust in a brand, it breeds believability in that brands message
MackCollier says Jul 18, 2008 02:12AM Gavin I can state that I had never heard of Masi until I met Tim
Trinkit says Jul 18, 2008 02:12AM Teeg get unhampered gameplay without the yucky DRM. So the company abuses it's customer base while not inconveniencing the people they're
Tim Jackson Jul 18, 2008 02:12AM However, I have been asked to be a panelist in some seminars at our industry tradeshow to introduce SM to more people. Many have no idea.
Trinkit says Jul 18, 2008 02:12AM Teeg trying to protect themself from. They distance themselves from their actual customers and are just seen as a huge company serving
acnatta asks Jul 18, 2008 02:13AM is there a magic formula as to how much we should be listening before talking TimJackson?
Trinkit says Jul 18, 2008 02:13AM Teeg themselves. Stardock is another company, they converse, talk and interact with their customers.
Trinkit says Jul 18, 2008 02:13AM Teeg, and they're doing quite well for themselves even in the hostile atmosphere of piracy.
nowsourcing says Jul 18, 2008 02:13AM hey all. I'm going to go against the grain and say that Twitter isn't going anywhere soon. It's got an audience...
servantofchaos says Jul 18, 2008 02:13AM MackCollier ... so it comes back to the personal brand being on loan to the corporate brand
Te-ge says Jul 18, 2008 02:13AM Trink now you're talking about one of my soapbox issues! It's also why I will not buy anything made by Sony!
MackCollier says Jul 18, 2008 02:13AM Tim I still think that many are completely clueless about SM. We are still the 1 percenters
nowsourcing says Jul 18, 2008 02:14AM not only that, but when you couple it with good client and search tools, it is much improved. I still learn lots about my brand there.
Trinkit says Jul 18, 2008 02:14AM Teeg We're on the same boat on that then. I refuse to be punished for paying for something.
Tim Jackson Jul 18, 2008 02:14AM Greg- YES! That is a big thing in my opinion. Keeping the marketing spew to a minimum and just engaging people is better long term strategy
GHollingsworth says Jul 18, 2008 02:14AM in my experience a lot of it stems from paranoia and not wanting to acknowledge criticism, or at least allow it to be recognized internally
Donna Tocci Jul 18, 2008 02:14AM Tim's right, the industry as a whole isn't too into SM. Tim is at the head of the pack for sure. I'm always surprised that more haven't
JHipkin says Jul 18, 2008 02:14AM there are lots of products w/ names pretending to be brands. Convo build relationships which creates unexpected brand value
Donna Tocci Jul 18, 2008 02:15AM looked at his success and jumped in. Their loss as he continues to take more of their share of the marketplace.
GHollingsworth says Jul 18, 2008 02:15AM what I have been trying to do is convince the old skool DM'ers that SM is the ultimate form of Direct Marketing
Tim Jackson Jul 18, 2008 02:15AM AC- buddy, I wish I knew what it was, but my feeling is that once you are comfortable being in the space, it is safe to create your own area
Te-ge says Jul 18, 2008 02:15AM when Sony was called out for their DRM, instead of apologizing, they fussed about the techies who found the problem.
Trinkit says Jul 18, 2008 02:15AM A tiny bit distracted, but bottom line is social media makes companies seem like people, and people generally like personal deals.
Trinkit says Jul 18, 2008 02:16AM Teeg, they also said 'people don't even know what rootkits are, so why should they care?'
Beth Harte says Jul 18, 2008 02:16AM what about Gavin's Question: so it comes back to the personal brand being on loan to the corporate brand?
Tim Jackson Jul 18, 2008 02:16AM Greg- yes, but here's the big thing; if you aren't in the conversation about your failures, you have no way to defend or explain.
GHollingsworth says Jul 18, 2008 02:16AM Trinkit exactly, SM allows a company to put the face of a real person on their brand, not just a spokesperson
Trinkit says Jul 18, 2008 02:17AM Teeg, that's just my remembering of the quote, it was insulting their customers intelligence either way.
Tim Jackson Jul 18, 2008 02:17AM Engaging people and working around real/ perceived issues will give you the chance to make it better- if not perfect.
Donna Tocci Jul 18, 2008 02:17AM bethharte, in some cases, yes. Tim is his own brand at this point. People identify with him as much, if not more so than Masi.
miketempleton Jul 18, 2008 02:17AM so what about companies that seemingly have no or limited customers/audience online? How does a company empower more to join in?
acnatta says Jul 18, 2008 02:17AM so it's basically being creating an evangelist identity right Greg?
GHollingsworth says Jul 18, 2008 02:17AM Tim - I know, but convincing people that they need to embrace criticism in all forms is not always an easy sell
JHipkin says Jul 18, 2008 02:17AM old school DMer here SM is a great tool to build relationship but so so good at selling something
Te-ge Jul 18, 2008 02:17AM TimJackson You also have to be willing to admit to your failures and try to fix them though. Sony is a good example of the opposite.
servantofchaos says Jul 18, 2008 02:18AM it means that we need a closer alignment between personal and corporate values
Beth Harte says Jul 18, 2008 02:18AM it's just like crisis comm, if you are always honest, the media won't come busting down your door the next time. They'll listen.
acnatta says Jul 18, 2008 02:18AM but building the relationship JHipkin gives you more opps to sell though
Tim Jackson Jul 18, 2008 02:18AM Beth/ Gavin- I had never even commented on a blog when I created Masiguy & then sent a press release to our industry mag.
Te-ge Jul 18, 2008 02:19AM miketempleton I think it's more a matter of finding who is online. They're there, you just need to know how to reach them.
GHollingsworth says Jul 18, 2008 02:19AM acnatta - not an identity, it's about creating an evangelist. People don't like marketers (ask Bill Hicks) they don't trust marketers
sonnygill Jul 18, 2008 02:19AM as communitymgr brought up earlier, its about Brand Reputation Management
Trinkit says Jul 18, 2008 02:19AM miketempleton, I'm not sure what you mean, have an example? Any company can create an online presence that's beneficial.
Tim Jackson Jul 18, 2008 02:19AM They ran the story the next day online... and THEN I told my bosses what I'd done. AFTER... it was a little weird. But they asked...
Beth Harte says Jul 18, 2008 02:19AM DonnaTocci does that only work with consumer brands? What about B2B? A thought leaders brand borrowed by his company?
miketempleton Jul 18, 2008 02:19AM Teeg, I hear you there, just seems difficult sometimes, especially when an industry seems old and stodgy (financial institutions).
acnatta says Jul 18, 2008 02:19AM so you'd still need a person though to do it and someone folks can trust and talk to
JHipkin Jul 18, 2008 02:20AM acnatta you bet it does. It's essential. You can't sell if they don't listen. They won't listen if they don't see value
GHollingsworth says Jul 18, 2008 02:20AM Jhipkin - but we don't know if it's a great selling tool or not, it's too hard to measure it's effects directly.
Tim Jackson Jul 18, 2008 02:20AM When the blog made into the New York Times 2 yrs ago during our major tradeshow, they suddenly "got it".
miketempleton Jul 18, 2008 02:20AM I work for a B2B company that services credit unions, but we have a hard time reaching and getting those people to participate.
Te-ge says Jul 18, 2008 02:21AM miketempleton The bank in Australia that was spamming websites found out where their customers were...the hard way.
GHollingsworth says Jul 18, 2008 02:21AM acnatta - yes, in fact you probably want more than one person if at all possible. Consumers have a voice and they want to be heard
Beth Harte says Jul 18, 2008 02:21AM Tim, that is a great story. So, how long did it take to build up a readership? How else did you get the word out?
miketempleton Jul 18, 2008 02:22AM Teeg, haha. I think ultimately for us it comes down to exposure and education. We have to find the customers AND educate them on SM
Donna Tocci Jul 18, 2008 02:22AM bethharte - could work for either. Depends on the personality, IMHO.
Te-ge Jul 18, 2008 02:22AM miketempleton are you trying to reach the credit unions themselves online or their customers?
JHipkin Jul 18, 2008 02:22AM SM is a great way to get the message out w/out spending a fortune to people who by their nature communicate
AmberCadabra Jul 18, 2008 02:23AM JHipkin very true. and those people are some of your BEST assets if they're a fan of your brand
MackCollier says Jul 18, 2008 02:23AM JHipkin right, some of the best value in SM comes from interacting with others on a site like this, not on your blog
Beth Harte says Jul 18, 2008 02:23AM miketempleton, do you need to educate customers on SM or just give them a way to be a part of your company's community? Blog, forum, etc?
Tim Jackson Jul 18, 2008 02:23AM Beth- I mostly just blogged for myself and kept doing it as the readers spread, but mostly I think it grew organically through commenting.
Donna Tocci Jul 18, 2008 02:24AM miket - I hear you. I think that in the B2B area people may be timid to say their mind on a blog etc with "big brother" watching. Not sure
Tim Jackson Jul 18, 2008 02:24AM I spend a lot of time in the community- though less lately with all I've had going on- and that spread things around.
JHipkin Jul 18, 2008 02:24AM ambercadabra they certainly are generally speaking 80% of sales come from 20% of customer. You want the haevy users on board
acnatta says Jul 18, 2008 02:24AM I've been experiencing that recently here. Some of the best "sellers" of the hyperlocal are email subscribers who I've spoken to
GHollingsworth says Jul 18, 2008 02:24AM right on the money Mack. I've gotten more out of the two plurkshops i've done than from any meeting i've ever been through
miketempleton Jul 18, 2008 02:24AM Not many credit unions are familiar with SM, so we are trying to engage them with our blog and encourage participation.
Beth Harte says Jul 18, 2008 02:24AM what would you say is a "normal" (hate to say norm) time period for a blog to build readership (B2B). A blog w/value that is...
Tim Jackson Jul 18, 2008 02:25AM Plus it helped to get mentioned repeatedly in the biz mags. I also got a big boost during the Tour 3 yrs ago, by doing my "coverage".
AmberCadabra Jul 18, 2008 02:25AM jhipkin yep, but it's amazing how many cos are still thinking "mass" instead of "critical mass"
Connie Jul 18, 2008 02:25AM Good news from being at workshop today, all this social networking stuff is beginning to be a little more mainstream.
Tim Jackson Jul 18, 2008 02:25AM It got linked from about 40+ sites/ blogs and really been growing then.
Donna Tocci Jul 18, 2008 02:25AM I think they feel they can't be themselves when it's in a B2B setting. A mold we'll have to bust down.
Connie Jul 18, 2008 02:26AM I mean, I taught a workshop at a search engine marketing conf. My session very well attended because breakfast keynote stressed importance.
GHollingsworth says Jul 18, 2008 02:26AM JHipkin, shouldn't the heavy users be the easiest to get on board? THey are already engaged, it's getting the others to engage that matters
Te-ge says Jul 18, 2008 02:26AM miketempleton Have you tried using quotable e-mails? Even people who don't know anything about blogs know how to forward an e-mail.
AmberCadabra Jul 18, 2008 02:26AM There's still a misconception by cos that if they're using an SM TOOL, they're doing SM. i.e. if I put my press releases on my blog, it's SM
miketempleton Jul 18, 2008 02:26AM DonnaTocci, I think you're right. In the B2B setting, they're just used to reading, not responding and interacting.
Te-ge says Jul 18, 2008 02:27AM mikethompson Have you tried using quotable e-mails? Even people who don't know what a blog is, know how to hit the forward button.
Beth Harte says Jul 18, 2008 02:27AM MikeT, it might help to do a post w/another fin. company showing how they use SM (a successful co). I find like follows like.
AmberCadabra Jul 18, 2008 02:27AM Greg but the engaged people are part of what helps FIND the non-engaged people
miketempleton Jul 18, 2008 02:27AM Teeg, we've started including clips from the blog in our weekly email and its bringing some traffic, but still slowly.
MackCollier says Jul 18, 2008 02:27AM it's not about the tools, it's about the connections that the tools help facilitate
servantofchaos says Jul 18, 2008 02:27AM One of the big opportunities in B2B is to begin hosting expert communities ... got to find the value drivers
Donna Tocci Jul 18, 2008 02:28AM JHipkin, yes, but SM is different. In a B2B setting you see fear of that same ole same ole...losing control of the message....
Connie Jul 18, 2008 02:28AM Tim, evidently your blog was one of the first in your industry. Have Masi's competitors seen what you'e doing and followed suit?
GHollingsworth says Jul 18, 2008 02:28AM Amber - True, but like I said, they should be easy to get on board. THe highly engaged are evangelists in waiting
Donna Tocci Jul 18, 2008 02:28AM saying something "wrong". It's an education thing. We, as the "gurus" need to educate. That's all.
AmberCadabra Jul 18, 2008 02:29AM Gavin, that's a super great point. Do you have good examples of folks doing that, or are they still learning how?
Tim Jackson Jul 18, 2008 02:28AM MikeT- Yes, it is more of a challenge probably, but it can be done. Soliciting feedback can engage people & get them dialoging.
Trinkit says Jul 18, 2008 02:29AM bethharte I don't know that there is a normal time. Provided a blog has content, you can establish a blog with value in a week or two.
miketempleton Jul 18, 2008 02:29AM bethharte that's an interesting idea. It seems that people are willing to learn, they just don't get it yet.
Tim Jackson Jul 18, 2008 02:29AM Connie- yes, there are new ones out there... though still not really all that many.
Connie Jul 18, 2008 02:30AM In my session today I used some of our examples from previous plurkshop about ROI ... Return on Involvement.
JHipkin Jul 18, 2008 02:30AM donneTocci cos need to get over that and give people a chance to engage. It may take time but the one who do will be influencial
servantofchaos says Jul 18, 2008 02:30AM I think most are still learning how ... but the tech communities seem to get it
miketempleton Jul 18, 2008 02:30AM Since we've talked about old DM vs new SM, what are the thoughts on using direct mail, email, etc. to promote and engage ppl in socmed?
Tim Jackson Jul 18, 2008 02:31AM Connie- I wish more would honestly. I want conversation to grow. It would benefit the industry if there was more talking, not yelling
Beth Harte says Jul 18, 2008 02:31AM MIkeT, I think alot is fear...what if I comment? I might get in trouble. I reprimanded someone back in 2001 for a blog post. No rules then.
Connie Jul 18, 2008 02:31AM And asked the point blank question: What is the cost of not participating? Loss of market share to competitor who does.
miketempleton Jul 18, 2008 02:31AM servantofchaos you're dead on. Tech communities have it in the bag, its other industries that are taking longer to adapt.
pritcharddesign thinks Jul 18, 2008 02:32AM businesses need to catch up with customers. We don't want to be shouted at any more. They aren't so sure conversation will work.
Donna Tocci Jul 18, 2008 02:32AM JHipkin - sometimes it's not the companies. It's the people in them. Mgmt may ok it, even encourage it, but getting people to engage
Te-ge Jul 18, 2008 02:32AM Connie but first they have to see a value in that market share, very few companies want to be the first to take the plunge.
Connie Jul 18, 2008 02:32AM A lot of people nodded at that question of whether they could afford *not* to participate. Seems like that argument is beginning to stick.
acnatta says Jul 18, 2008 02:32AM conversation is the only way right now - I'd rather be spoken with than spoken to
servantofchaos says Jul 18, 2008 02:32AM MikeTempleton the trick is to treat SM as part of an integrated campaign that reaches your participants via multiple touchpoints
Trinkit says Jul 18, 2008 02:32AM Bethharte, I've seen companies that are just the opposite, they understand that vulnerability is sometimes endearing to customers.
miketempleton Jul 18, 2008 02:32AM bethharte, a lot of it is fear, I agree. They don't know what to do with the power of conversation. 'Huh? I can respond?'
GHollingsworth says Jul 18, 2008 02:33AM miket - the problem with mixing dm and sm is that the use of dm brings dm measurement into the equation
Beth Harte is Jul 18, 2008 02:32AM thankful she's in the tech community...fingers crossed for a successful blog.
acnatta says Jul 18, 2008 02:33AM there seem to be more ready to take the plunge Teeg, but they want some of us there to help them understand...
Trinkit says Jul 18, 2008 02:33AM bethharte, IE: A company that will make a mistake, and then own up on it, and apologize, to generate increased publicity and sales.
davidalston Jul 18, 2008 02:33AM miketempleton - social media is unfortunately a "you gotta do it to get it" kind of thing eh
AmberCadabra Jul 18, 2008 02:33AM Connie do you think they're starting to see the perceived "risk" as being worth it, in order to lead rather than follow?
Tim Jackson Jul 18, 2008 02:33AM David- true, but it has been hurting the industry, as a whole, not helping it grow."A high tide raises all boats."
Beth Harte is Jul 18, 2008 02:33AM MikeT or even how to respond. Rule: Don't post an ad for your product in a comment.
Te-ge says Jul 18, 2008 02:33AM acnatta it is, but who the group I'm engaging is will influence who I try to engage them. Some with e-mail, some blogs, some other SM
Connie Jul 18, 2008 02:33AM Teeg, more and more they are seeing that they aren't the first to take the plunge.
Connie Jul 18, 2008 02:34AM And I teach that starting a blog is not necessarily the right point of entry into social media.
MackCollier says Jul 18, 2008 02:34AM Connie I am seeing a big interest in hearing about case studies, I think that's a sign that interest in SM is rising
templestark Jul 18, 2008 02:34AM The problem w/ Twitter at the moment is the only 10 pages to go back-so I at least don't want to push others out of the way w/ my inanity.
AmberCadabra Jul 18, 2008 02:34AM Connie amen to that. It's the most common and identifiable tool, so everyone figures they need one.
miketempleton Jul 18, 2008 02:34AM davidalston, very true. I realize it will just take time, but *others* don't see that right away.
acnatta says Jul 18, 2008 02:35AM definitely, it's still about the tools that are available and the target group's comfort level with them
servantofchaos says Jul 18, 2008 02:35AM davidalston though you can use marketing metrics to help them "get it" -- decreased cost of customer acquistion, improved customer sat etc
davidalston Jul 18, 2008 02:34AM tim jackson - the tough part is spreading the word. It's a one at a time kind of battle in many ways isn't it.
GHollingsworth says Jul 18, 2008 02:35AM Connie, I agree. Unfortunately blogs are the most notable socmed form, so for many it's the only socmed form they know
Connie Jul 18, 2008 02:35AM Amber, yes. I think we're moving toward that tipping point -- not that more companies are actually doing social media yet ...
Te-ge says Jul 18, 2008 02:35AM Connie Yay! Too many people think you have to start with a blog, and I totally believe it's the wrong start for most.
Tim Jackson Jul 18, 2008 02:36AM David, yes it is my friend. I began another blog, a group one, that addresses marketing and issues in the biz...
Connie Jul 18, 2008 02:36AM But more companies are *thinking* about doing social media. They're reading about it, sending employees to conferences.
JHipkin says Jul 18, 2008 02:36AM cos should put a toe in to try. Learn by doing. The risk is low the potential high.
Beth Harte asks Jul 18, 2008 02:36AM Connie, what's a good entry point? Commenting on other blogs? Any other entry points?
templestark Jul 18, 2008 02:36AM too much evangelism as if SM is the second coming is damaging. it's another tool. Sorry AmberCadabra
Connie Jul 18, 2008 02:36AM May still be a while before they adopt it, but I counsel that they dip their toes in the water, so to speak.
davidalston Jul 18, 2008 02:36AM servantofchaos - yes, you are right. Also case studies can help too.
miketempleton Jul 18, 2008 02:37AM starting a blog just to have one is wrong. It's got to fit your objectives. I believe strongly in identifying goals & aspiring towards them.
Tim Jackson Jul 18, 2008 02:36AM ...hoping to start open dialog. Instead, I got brands camping on the blog to monitor, not participate. When their brand is mentioned...\
AmberCadabra Jul 18, 2008 02:37AM templestark I completely agree with you, actually. It's one tool in the box, not the silver bullet.
GHollingsworth says Jul 18, 2008 02:37AM templestark - it's not a silver bullet, yes, it's another tool, but with the potential to be amazingly effective if utilized properly
templestark Jul 18, 2008 02:37AM connie et al. it's a shame blogs are thought of as passe already by many.
acnatta says Jul 18, 2008 02:38AM that is a shame templestark because it's still a great way to drive a conversation
Connie Jul 18, 2008 02:38AM I used three E's to talk about the process of getting involved in social media and used the analogy of a business networking event.
Te-ge says Jul 18, 2008 02:38AM bethharte I encourage people to check out specialized SM sites too. When it's a small world, every relationship helps.
JHipkin says Jul 18, 2008 02:38AM it's a tool that can engage the heavy user who can move the business
servantofchaos says Jul 18, 2008 02:38AM MikeTempleton ... yes and measure. Even if your objectives are off, it helps to know this. You have to measure
AmberCadabra Jul 18, 2008 02:38AM And to be perfectly honest, I think SM is a bit "buzzy" right now and will eventually get assimilated into the overall mktg picture
templestark thinks Jul 18, 2008 02:38AM it's a different conversation - small cocktail chatter or in comfy couches talking about things, life improvement (W.ev that means)
Connie Jul 18, 2008 02:38AM Mack, agree that wanting to see case studies indicates interest in social media on the rise.
Trinkit says Jul 18, 2008 02:39AM AmberCadabra, I disagree. It's a hard thing to explain, but, the current generation is cynical, jaded, and tired of traditional marketing.
Beth Harte says Jul 18, 2008 02:39AM Tim it was something you said to Gavin, can't find it now. Thanks anyway!
davidalston Jul 18, 2008 02:39AM reminds me of the old saying "people will always choose to deal with people they like" - and you get to know people with conversation.
servantofchaos says Jul 18, 2008 02:39AM AmberCadabra yes, we have to move away from the divide around SM and the rest of our marketing efforts
Trinkit says Jul 18, 2008 02:39AM AmberCadabra, they've been advertised since day 1 in this totally BS way, social media and marketing leads to word of mouth and more
Connie Jul 18, 2008 02:40AM Tim, good point about brands using blogs as reputation monitoring tools, but then they need to take next step & join convesation.
Trinkit says Jul 18, 2008 02:40AM AmberCadabra, trustworthy advertisements. I think social media -is- a kind of silver bullet and will be king of the hill in the future.
Tim Jackson Jul 18, 2008 02:40AM Amber- good point. My bosses liked the attention my blog got so much that they mandated that our new corporate sites be redone with blogs.
GHollingsworth says Jul 18, 2008 02:40AM Trinkit I have to disagree, the current generation will hear if the message is delivered properly, Apple for instance
Tim Jackson Jul 18, 2008 02:40AM The new sites will be launching soon and the blog will be the home page. Radically different approach for us.
AmberCadabra Jul 18, 2008 02:41AM It's the realization that SM is what marketing *should* be in most cases, all along. Term for the overall integration of dialogue into mktg.
AmberCadabra Jul 18, 2008 02:42AM Tim I'm doing the same with my own (little) site. It just makes sense now.
servantofchaos says Jul 18, 2008 02:42AM But then I also think that Marketing should get more voice/recognition at the Board level and that happens rarely
JHipkin says Jul 18, 2008 02:42AM some cos have been trying to generate convo w/ customer thru DM. SM makes t easier.
Tim Jackson Jul 18, 2008 02:42AM Yes- product is not getting the spotlight, the personality of the brands is getting the spotlight.
davidalston Jul 18, 2008 02:42AM Tim, any predictions on how the change to the site will change the way people interact with you?
Trinkit says Jul 18, 2008 02:42AM Greg, I tend to think of Apple as an exception, however, it got lots of boosts from social media as well, not just traditional ads.
Trinkit says Jul 18, 2008 02:43AM Greg, especially with Mac OS X, due to the Darwin OS base, it got lots of open-source enthusiasts endearing the product.
AmberCadabra Jul 18, 2008 02:43AM Gavin, uh huh. It happens rarely, and i think that contributes to a lot of ignorance about what works
GHollingsworth says Jul 18, 2008 02:43AM Davidalston hit the nail on the head, people don't like marketers, they like people who they feel they can trust
Tim Jackson Jul 18, 2008 02:43AM Gavin- I agree and we have seen a little shift with our brands to allow that to happen.
templestark Jul 18, 2008 02:43AM a whole different conversation i'll look for answers elsewhere but "Social media" seems to encompass a lot that I don't think applies.
GHollingsworth says Jul 18, 2008 02:44AM Trinkit - Of course you do, that's exactly what they want you to think. Apple appears different because they deliver the message correctly
Tim Jackson Jul 18, 2008 02:44AM David- I predict it will become much more dynamic. I see fewer website emails coming and comments instead ON the site.
Tim Jackson Jul 18, 2008 02:45AM Mack- each of us Brand Managers will handle our own blogs. So that means I'll have another blog to work on.
templestark Jul 18, 2008 02:45AM as always, creators and consumers usually have different outlooks. We think of it as creators more perhaps? ??
Beth Harte says Jul 18, 2008 02:45AM I am having my customer service team get more involved with SM and some marketing for that exact reason. People trust them.
JHipkin says Jul 18, 2008 02:45AM having worked w/ them Apple is still very product oriented. Convo is a by product of their great products not something they drive
GHollingsworth says Jul 18, 2008 02:45AM Trinkit - THe Mac OS didn't make them trendy, it was lifestyle marketing and they did it very well with the iPod
Connie Jul 18, 2008 02:45AM Awesome accomplishment, Tim. Sounds like you're responsible for a culture shift at Masi.
Trinkit says Jul 18, 2008 02:45AM Greg, erm, not quite, Apple's not different. Just other factors contributed to Apple regaining market share. It wasn't a sudden new
servantofchaos says Jul 18, 2008 02:45AM a colleague noted that he has seen a 27% drop in email since he started using Twitter -- for internal and external discussion
Tim Jackson Jul 18, 2008 02:45AM Donna- thanks! And we did get some money for my pet project of creating a video component as well.
Trinkit says Jul 18, 2008 02:46AM Greg trendy advertising campaign. EX: The Mac Vs. PC ads alienated alot of customers.
AmberCadabra Jul 18, 2008 02:46AM JHipkin, I have to disagree with that. I think Apple is a MASTER of driving conversation.
Beth Harte says Jul 18, 2008 02:46AM TimJackson, that's great! To me that means folks feel comfortable enough to leave a comment, knowing you'll respond. Kudos!
GHollingsworth says Jul 18, 2008 02:47AM Trinkit - THat's what I was trying to imply, they're not different, but they sell themselves as being different and better
davidalston Jul 18, 2008 02:47AM tim - do you see the next stage evolving into a more formal community environment (Jive Software thing etc...)
Tim Jackson Jul 18, 2008 02:47AM Connie, yes, maybe. But I think I just made enough noise and got enough of the right attention that my sister brands weren't.
Connie Jul 18, 2008 02:47AM Interesting stat, Gavin, about Twitter and email. Lots of talk about that at the conf. today. Big influx of ppl on Twitter.
Donna Tocci Jul 18, 2008 02:47AM Tim - any rough timeline on this fabulous launch? You know I like to use your successes as examples in presentations!
AmberCadabra Jul 18, 2008 02:47AM timJackson congrats on a real sea change for your brand; big accomplishment!
GHollingsworth says Jul 18, 2008 02:47AM Trinkit - Maybe so, but it didn't alienate 1 million people from buying the iPhone in 1 day last week did it?
JHipkin says Jul 18, 2008 02:47AM Apple is very focused on producing great product. The convo comes as a result.
AmberCadabra Jul 18, 2008 02:48AM JHipkin Steve Jobs getting on stage and doing his infamous blockbuster launches is every bit intentional.
Tim Jackson Jul 18, 2008 02:48AM David, I'm not really sure where it will head yet. I'm still feeling my way around it all. But that is part of the process I share on blog.
AmberCadabra Jul 18, 2008 02:48AM I agree that their product is noteworthy to start with, which helps. But they know exactly how to tap the evangelists they have.
Beth Harte says Jul 18, 2008 02:48AM But is Apple talking back to anyone? Participating? I am asking only because I don't know...
Trinkit says Jul 18, 2008 02:48AM Greg, I meant that their success with traditional marketing is an exception, if that's what you got, then I'm missing your point.
JHipkin says Jul 18, 2008 02:48AM it's about the products. The convo comes. Not saying it's a bad thing just, for them, a by product.
templestark Jul 18, 2008 02:48AM RE: companies -conversation to be effective via SM has to not only exist but respond. If answers / changes are forthcoming, trust arrives.
davidalston Jul 18, 2008 02:49AM tim - count me in too on using any case studies of Masi as well - would love to see them
miketempleton Jul 18, 2008 02:49AM I love when sites use blogs as the main portion of their site, but only when they actually use it.
Connie Jul 18, 2008 02:49AM "still feeling my way around," Tim said. And that's something companies have to understand. There won't always be immed. answers.
Tim Jackson Jul 18, 2008 02:49AM Donna- not sure yet, but soon. We have to get thru our sales mtg first and then we will be finishing touches. The rough skeleton is done.
Te-ge has Jul 18, 2008 02:50AM to agree with amber the conversation is intentional. Steve Jobs creates a production out of any new product to create conversation.
servantofchaos says Jul 18, 2008 02:50AM BethHarte I think AmberCadabra was right - Apple DRIVE conversation but don't participate
templestark Jul 18, 2008 02:50AM icopanies who give a little get more from me, so even if their products aren't the best jhpkin - I'm likely to go with CO
GHollingsworth says Jul 18, 2008 02:50AM Trinkit - who knows, I'm trying to follow so many threads it's hard to keep track of it all.
Beth Harte says Jul 18, 2008 02:50AM Does anyone have an example of a blog as a homepage? (In case I can't wait for Tim's big unveiling)
AmberCadabra Jul 18, 2008 02:50AM Connie Tim SM is a living,breathing thing that needs to be nurtured. There is no "perfect" and feeling it out is critical
Beth Harte says Jul 18, 2008 02:51AM So is Apple participating in SM if they are conversing? They might as well use Twitter! Har...
davidalston Jul 18, 2008 02:51AM the days of messages with "guidance systems" to hit targets are over. No longer target marketing, now target listening and engagement
Tim Jackson Jul 18, 2008 02:51AM Connie, yes. My blog had 20- 30 readers/day for months. Now it's more like 500- 1100 (depending on content). But it took time.
miketempleton Jul 18, 2008 02:52AM plus with the way blogs ping search engines, building a site on a blog platform is SEO heaven
servantofchaos says Jul 18, 2008 02:52AM BethHarte a friend's agency has a blog as a homepage now stickyads.com.au/
Te-ge says Jul 18, 2008 02:52AM Beth I don't think they're participating, but they do know the importance of conversation and create it.
Beth Harte says Jul 18, 2008 02:52AM Thanks MikeT, I have never seen that before...not sure my company would go in for something like that...Maybe in a few years. Love it.
Tim Jackson Jul 18, 2008 02:52AM I have two reviews of products being done because the editors read the blog!
Connie Jul 18, 2008 02:52AM "still feeling my way around" - and that is done in public, on the blog, not inside company walls. Makes many ppl nervous.
davidalston Jul 18, 2008 02:52AM bethharte - Apple is an interesting case - they've almost evolved to the highest level - rabid community supporting itself.
GHollingsworth says Jul 18, 2008 02:52AM templestark - is Apple really a socmed success story? They create conversations, but they don't participate in them, is that good or bad?
Donna Tocci Jul 18, 2008 02:53AM but Tim, you said something earlier that is so true...you promoted the blog at every opportunity in a "mainstream" way - print, in person..
GHollingsworth says Jul 18, 2008 02:53AM davidalston - good point, but does that mean they can remove themselves from the convo.?
davidalston Jul 18, 2008 02:54AM ambercadabra - as long as the plaque is a real cheesy one from the 70's
Donna Tocci Jul 18, 2008 02:54AM you worked at it. Some companies think they can just create a blog and it will instantly be popular w/out any additional work
DebInAustin says Jul 18, 2008 02:54AM there is something like idol worship going on with Apple. It's like we all fell for the Jedi Mind trick. Not that it wasn't worth it...
miketempleton Jul 18, 2008 02:54AM speaking of reviews, here's an FI website employing product reviews www.americafirst.com/reviews/
GHollingsworth says Jul 18, 2008 02:54AM perhaps I should have said " should they remove themselves from the convo.?
AmberCadabra Jul 18, 2008 02:54AM Greg I think they're a better example of cust. evangelism than SM per se
Connie Jul 18, 2008 02:54AM Apple is not social media success story; they are word of mouth success story.
JHipkin says Jul 18, 2008 02:54AM that's it, Apple rabid community supporting itself. Apple feeds the frenzy w/ great products but doesn't directly drive the convo. GTG
acnatta says Jul 18, 2008 02:54AM but it's become more important to figure out ways to get that same social media engagement with it
Te-ge says Jul 18, 2008 02:54AM Greg I think the end results of the iphone launch will tell whether they are successful for now or not. It will be interesting.
DebInAustin says Jul 18, 2008 02:55AM or is Apple just really good at listening to what their customers have been saying all along?
GHollingsworth says Jul 18, 2008 02:55AM acnatta - I agree completely, there are still hundreds of millions of people who are not involved in social media
Tim Jackson Jul 18, 2008 02:55AM Donna- yes. MSM is not dead yet and still has great reach in many ways. As Mack said earlier- we're still the 1%'ers.
davidalston Jul 18, 2008 02:55AM Greg - I totally agree. However I would argue customers control 99% of apples brand and defend it to the death. Its pretty amazing.
davidalston Jul 18, 2008 02:56AM When apple launches something new it just food for the fan base. It gets totally consumed. Rare example.
Te-ge says Jul 18, 2008 02:56AM DebinDenver actually, that's something that even apple fans will tell you, Steve Jobs at least isn't that good at listening.
GHollingsworth says Jul 18, 2008 02:56AM regardless of the iPhone launch results, Apple has managed to create a community of evangelists that is more powerful than any ad
Trinkit says Jul 18, 2008 02:56AM Teeg, Oooh, the iphone, another product that 'seems' successful, but has bitten most people that bought into it.
AmberCadabra Jul 18, 2008 02:56AM Connie How do you do that? Is there a better way to define conversation, or is it about executing and not just talking about it?
Beth Harte says Jul 18, 2008 02:56AM Donna, that goes back to an earlier Plurkshop, using trad. mktg to promote implemented SM and vice versa.
Connie Jul 18, 2008 02:57AM kmunse social media/WOM are different but can be integated, using social media to drive WOM
Trinkit says Jul 18, 2008 02:57AM Teeg, I personally love the iphone debacle, but, it is a strange success, it's lockdown into a single company, the fact that a good
Trinkit says Jul 18, 2008 02:57AM Teeg, portion outright ignore the 'limits' and 'illegally' free themselves from the contract and other limitations on the product.
GHollingsworth says Jul 18, 2008 02:57AM davidalston - they do indeed, but Apple would have to do something pretty terrible to break that loyalty at this point.
Donna Tocci Jul 18, 2008 02:57AM bethharte, I'll have to look up the transcript on that. This is my first Plurkshop!
templestark Jul 18, 2008 02:57AM @ Greg. connie. Isn't word ofmouth the ultimate AND original social media ??
DebInAustin says Jul 18, 2008 02:57AM Teeg I have heard that Jobs isn't good at listening. That's why I used the Jedi Mind trick analogy. He says it's cool and we all go for it.
Trinkit says Jul 18, 2008 02:57AM Greg, like releasing a 300$ product then 6 months later dropping the price?
acnatta says Jul 18, 2008 02:57AM Trinkit it goes back to the issue of are they listening and how do they let us know they're listening...
Connie Jul 18, 2008 02:58AM I think Apple is the exception, not the rule, and not applicable to most businesses considering social media.
davidalston Jul 18, 2008 02:58AM isn't it ironic that one of the biggest social networks - Facebook - is nearly impossible to converse with. How do we let them do this?
Te-ge Jul 18, 2008 02:57AM agrees Trinkit. But still people line up for more. Doesn't make much sense to me, but I learned quickly with my first ipod
Tim Jackson Jul 18, 2008 02:58AM Donna- "success", however defined can not be expected over night- as you know.Some cos have a hard time w/ that thought.
GHollingsworth says Jul 18, 2008 02:58AM Trinkit - I would have thought so, but it didn't seem to bother people too much. At least not the million people who spent $200 more fri.
acnatta says Jul 18, 2008 02:58AM davidalston it's gotten much better thanks to Facebook IM and better access to the messaging/inbox function
DebInAustin says Jul 18, 2008 02:58AM davidalston I have always wondered that about Facebook. If you aren't on it constantly and looking at various apps your convo moves slow.
Trinkit says Jul 18, 2008 02:59AM Teeg, I think I'm one of the rare ones that doesn't own a single Apple product either. x.X
templestark Jul 18, 2008 02:59AM As someone already said, Apple in a lot of areas - is at another level in products, especially, but it's very loyal fan base.
Te-ge says Jul 18, 2008 02:59AM davidalston Many SNs are impossible to converse with. Digg and Sphinn have had issues with some of their big users over that.
davidalston Jul 18, 2008 02:59AM I agree Greg. Apple is just one small voice amongst thousands of "Apple voices". The Grateful Dead of corporate brands.
Connie Jul 18, 2008 02:59AM Templestark, semantics perhaps but you cannot divorce social media from technology. WOM was original maketing method; SM helps amplify it.
GHollingsworth says Jul 18, 2008 02:59AM Trinkit Teeg - If you don't count Quicktime, I'm 100% Apple free
templestark Jul 18, 2008 03:00AM That's why I was curious about other companies, or heck maybe just rock bands DRIVEN and/or enhanced by SM.
Trinkit says Jul 18, 2008 03:00AM Greg, counting quicktime, I'm 100% apple free, quicktime has security vulns that make me refuse to install it ^^;
DebInAustin says Jul 18, 2008 03:00AM bethharte I would think engagement is two-way, but one party may be only listening/asking questions, not presenting info.
templestark Jul 18, 2008 03:00AM NB: Went to friend Davidalston on twitter and plurk - and he'd beaten me to it on plurk at least
Tim Jackson Jul 18, 2008 03:01AM Beth, I think that engaging & conversing are so similar, they have to both be two-way. How can you engage w/o convo?
davidalston Jul 18, 2008 03:01AM teeg - more good examples. Social network brands not living the social media (conversations) way they actually live off of. Bizarre.
GHollingsworth says Jul 18, 2008 03:01AM davidalston - ugh, I hate jam bands, but it's a good comparison. IT's the trip that never stops
Connie Jul 18, 2008 03:01AM Disagree about engagement -- you can be engaged with content without conversation.
Beth Harte asks Jul 18, 2008 03:02AM Connie, can you expand? I think that's what I said engagement doesn't equal convo.
DebInAustin says Jul 18, 2008 03:02AM bethharte what if someone is watching you give a presentation? I'd call that engagement- as long as their not IM'ing people!
templestark Jul 18, 2008 03:02AM connie, i defer because i don't know answer on tech / SM relationship. i heard about Twitter vie e-mail - is that still tech. or just life?
GHollingsworth says Jul 18, 2008 03:03AM Trinkit - okay, so I'm 99.5% Apple free. I'm just too lazy to get rid of quicktime, too many people use it
Te-ge Jul 18, 2008 03:02AM bethharte kmunse How can you be engaged without 2 parties actively involved?
Tim Jackson Jul 18, 2008 03:03AM I just can't personally see "engaging" a community w/o "conversing" w/ it as well. Maybe I'm more of a freak though...
miketempleton Jul 18, 2008 03:03AM Connie, that's what we are struggling with. People are coming and reading our blog, but without conversation we feel at a loss.
davidalston Jul 18, 2008 03:03AM connie - good point. In fact another layer - lurkers watching conversation can be engaged in it as content.
GHollingsworth says Jul 18, 2008 03:03AM bethharte - Burn Notice is on? Holy crap, I gotta go, oh wait, Tivo to the rescue.
Te-ge Jul 18, 2008 03:04AM davidalston it's also a complaint I've heard about SU since it was brought out by ebay. I think big business trend is away from listening.
acnatta says Jul 18, 2008 03:04AM they can digg or vote and not leave a comment - unfair for those wanting feedback but possible
DebInAustin says Jul 18, 2008 03:05AM a lot of cultures count listening as engagement. And it is important, but they always switch roles. Iisten you talk, you listen I talk.
GHollingsworth says Jul 18, 2008 03:05AM i would agree TimJackson, I find it hard not to engage, but i think everyone here probably feels that way
Tim Jackson Jul 18, 2008 03:05AM I understand the point that listening is engaging, but if we're talking about a strategy for a brand- it has to be more active to me.
Te-ge says Jul 18, 2008 03:05AM davidalston I bet if you asked the lurkers though, they may be engaged, but don't feel involved. Lurking always feels outside the talk.
Connie Jul 18, 2008 03:06AM You can measure engagement by how long someone spends reading content, if they click to othe pages on site, download file, etc.
miketempleton Jul 18, 2008 03:06AM It's also interesting that after enough time, lurkers eventually become participating members. It just takes em longer to join in.
DebInAustin says Jul 18, 2008 03:06AM does anyone know what percent of online users use social bookmarking sites? That is a confusing concept for a lot of people, so wonder.
Beth Harte says Jul 18, 2008 03:06AM Folks, it's 11:05 with over 425 plurks...do we go on or fade into the sunset?
GHollingsworth says Jul 18, 2008 03:06AM why don't we ask the lurkers, there have got to be some somewhere. Do any of the lurkers have anything to add?
Connie Jul 18, 2008 03:07AM Perhaps engagement precedes conversation, determines whether someone will become involved enough to have conversation.
Tim Jackson Jul 18, 2008 03:07AM Connie great point, so what's better; number of visitors or page loads?
DebInAustin says Jul 18, 2008 03:07AM so do the lurkers then contribute something after the fact to close the loop on engagement, like tell others about what they observed?
miketempleton Jul 18, 2008 03:07AM I've read other PlurkShop scripts before, but never felt engaged until I participated in one.
DebInAustin says Jul 18, 2008 03:07AM maybe the engagement is directly with you the presenter of the info, but they take what they heard and tell friends/colleagues.
davidalston Jul 18, 2008 03:08AM teeg - yes, I think big biz can sometimes take a social network company and move it away from conversation (scared what might happen)
Beth Harte asks Jul 18, 2008 03:08AM MikeT, but did you feel engaged in the Plurk community by reading?
Connie Jul 18, 2008 03:08AM Tim, one isn't necessaily better than the other (visitors/pageviews); they're different. Informally, you can even measure your site's CQ -
Tim Jackson Jul 18, 2008 03:08AM Beth- we'll keep the party going and I'll remember to take out the trash afterwards. Get some rest.
Te-ge thinks Jul 18, 2008 03:09AM you have to find a way to engage the lurkers deb. Even if it's through e-mails that they forward to others, involving them is a need
miketempleton Jul 18, 2008 03:09AM Until I asked questions and responded, I didn't feel engaged in the PlurkShops taking place. Felt like an outsider until now.
templestark Jul 18, 2008 03:09AM measuring engagement by length of time is good/ necessary (?) but you can also inspire with one memorable sentence, photo .. or product.
davidalston Jul 18, 2008 03:10AM I wonder if we need a new measurement specifically for the lurkers - Return on Impact - to measure their engagement.
acnatta says Jul 18, 2008 03:10AM I only enjoy these when I get a chance to get feedback on my comments
Te-ge says Jul 18, 2008 03:10AM davidalston I think that's unfortunate, but what seems to happen more often than not. Even with the "big players" in the network.
acnatta says Jul 18, 2008 03:11AM otherwise I'm having to interpret what's been said for my situation
Tim Jackson Jul 18, 2008 03:11AM MikeT- we're glad you decided to chime in and get engaged in our conversation.
DebInAustin says Jul 18, 2008 03:11AM teeg I think you need to engage them, I was just asking couldn't you count their post-lurk activity as engagement, b/c they spread message
Connie Jul 18, 2008 03:11AM The closest I've seen to measuring lurkers / engagement / conversation / content creators is Forrester's ladder analysis
Te-ge says Jul 18, 2008 03:12AM I never realized how many lurkers were on my blog until I started writing about introverts and social media.
miketempleton Jul 18, 2008 03:12AM Thanks TimJackson. Now if I could only get you to approve my friend request.
Connie Jul 18, 2008 03:12AM Teeg, I also wrote about introverts/social media and was one of my most read posts.
Te-ge says Jul 18, 2008 03:12AM I had hit on the subject many had been waiting for. There are a lot who want to but are afraid to get involved.
Beth Harte says Jul 18, 2008 03:13AM AmberCadabra inclusion is the key. That's what makes a community, no?
acnatta says Jul 18, 2008 03:13AM thanks TimJackson & bethharte - this was great - have to get ready for Batman...
DebInAustin says Jul 18, 2008 03:14AM I think you need to feel included in order to engage. If you don't feel included you are less likely to jump in.
Te-ge Jul 18, 2008 03:13AM suspects there are fewer lurkers on a site like Plurk. It's easier to get involved in the conversation. I'll still lurk on twitter sometimes
Beth Harte says Jul 18, 2008 03:14AM it's been discussed that SM helps introverts become more involved. But I have to say as an Extro, it's helped me to learn to listen first.
Tim Jackson Jul 18, 2008 03:14AM David- I'm actually a pretty shy person and really only open up once feeling safe, but I live a very public existence and kinda always have.
miketempleton Jul 18, 2008 03:15AM Connie, even if you invite them, how often will they respond. They don't comment because they like to lurk.
AmberCadabra Jul 18, 2008 03:15AM I was very engaged with Twitter from the start - but passively. Only when I got brave enough to @ someone did I feel included.
DebInAustin says Jul 18, 2008 03:15AM Good night acnatta! No spoilers for those of us who don't get to see it 'til weekend!
AmberCadabra Jul 18, 2008 03:15AM timjackson that's me, exactly. I'm type A because of my job, not my personality really.
Te-ge says Jul 18, 2008 03:15AM miketempleton I don't think it's a matter of liking it for most people
Trinkit says Jul 18, 2008 03:16AM I have no clue what type I am online. Offline, I suffer from severe SAD.
Tim Jackson Jul 18, 2008 03:16AM Connie- I try to get people involved as much as I can be trying to remain accessible. I also use polls a lot- to get the commty interacting
Connie Jul 18, 2008 03:16AM MikeT - LOL but sometimes they're waiting for the right content and for the encouragement to comment, to feel included
DebInAustin says Jul 18, 2008 03:16AM AmberCadabra what made you make that step, did they do something to get you to tweet, or did you just decide to jump in?
davidalston Jul 18, 2008 03:16AM but as we tell folks - listen first then join the conversation. No not all bad - connie is right - maybe we need to ask them to join.
Te-ge says Jul 18, 2008 03:16AM I'm an extrovert on here because I receive so much encouragement. My normal personality is introvert.
Connie Jul 18, 2008 03:17AM Polls are good, Tim. A very non-threatening way to interact with your site.
Beth Harte says Jul 18, 2008 03:17AM Connie, that's a good point. It has to bee something they relate to.
Te-ge says Jul 18, 2008 03:17AM I can't tell you how many blogs I've started writing comments on, only to walk away afraid that what I had to say might be taken wrong
miketempleton Jul 18, 2008 03:17AM connie and teeg, you are right. In a forum I run I do see lurkers come out and post, just saying they've been looking for the right moment
miketempleton Jul 18, 2008 03:17AM They've been waiting for the time when they feel safe before they can engage.
davidalston Jul 18, 2008 03:17AM think of a cocktail party - you'd have to be mega Type A Extro to walk up to a group and join in fast. And it's not always good.
Trinkit says Jul 18, 2008 03:17AM Teeg, I'm always terrified of what I type being taken wrong, just online, noone can really hurt me cause of it.
Connie Jul 18, 2008 03:18AM Bingo, Teeg! There is still a certain amount of courage required to comment, but we can help make it easier by setting the right tone.
GHollingsworth says Jul 18, 2008 03:18AM i think personalty type is situational for most people. It's easier to be extroverted here when it's just words on a page
templestark Jul 18, 2008 03:18AM "taken wrong" - if peolpe / places made it more clear they'll follow up with non-attacking queries that would help.
Connie Jul 18, 2008 03:19AM Frankly, part of my success, like Tim, is that I'm accessible and I try to have fun and make people feel comfortable, not intimidated.
Te-ge says Jul 18, 2008 03:19AM LOL I get nervous responding to comments on my blog. What helps though is to think about using 140 characters
DebInAustin says Jul 18, 2008 03:19AM yeah AmberCadabra. And I don't mean they were necessarily reaching out, just that you felt compelled to get into an interesting topic.
Beth Harte says Jul 18, 2008 03:19AM sometimes I lurk because I feel like I don't have anything different or smart to contribute. Then when it's right, I jump in. It's timing.
templestark Jul 18, 2008 03:19AM you can be hurt if you really like the site and want to continue to .. tada, engage.
davidalston Jul 18, 2008 03:19AM as long as your framework is "building relationships" you generally can't go wrong in engaging or listening.
Connie Jul 18, 2008 03:20AM People open up if they think you are willing to listen. Reread you content before posting. Are you copping a 'tude? Will determine response.
GHollingsworth says Jul 18, 2008 03:20AM Teeg - I get the same way, especially when I feel I've been misunderstood. Tone can be hard to convey in print
Te-ge says Jul 18, 2008 03:20AM Greg actually, it's easier for me to be extroverted in a party setting. If I can see people and watch their reactions, I do well.
Tim Jackson Jul 18, 2008 03:20AM Connie- precisely. It relates to "tone" and personality. Not saying that a more "serious" blog/ site can't develop comments- might take time
templestark Jul 18, 2008 03:20AM Ye, bethharte sums that up well, if it's been said, I don't usually want to add to repetition.
Beth Harte says Jul 18, 2008 03:21AM David, that's what I meant about SM being good for extroverts because it teaches them to listen before engaging. Very important.
AmberCadabra Jul 18, 2008 03:20AM Deb yes. someone said something when it was more important to respond than to be afraid, I guess.
Tim Jackson Jul 18, 2008 03:22AM One of the ways I got less shy was to use Technorati to find convo's about Masi and then went & commented there. It helped dev' my blog.
AmberCadabra Jul 18, 2008 03:21AM The real problem for you people is that when i'm comfortable, I don't shut up.
DebInAustin says Jul 18, 2008 03:22AM Connie rereading is so important, sometimes I unintentionally have the wrong voice, but don't see it until I read it later. Frame of mind!
GHollingsworth says Jul 18, 2008 03:22AM Teeg - like I said, it's situational for everyone, I believe I'm type AB (if I remember correctly), but who knows.
miketempleton Jul 18, 2008 03:22AM bethharte that is the mentality of our audience. They don't feel they have anything to contribute, even though 'nice post' would be fine.
Connie Jul 18, 2008 03:22AM What we're talking about has more to do w/ people skills than technology or writing skills or smarts. It's how you treat people.
Beth Harte says Jul 18, 2008 03:22AM kmunse, and yet on Plurk we've been having very smart convos and enagements!
davidalston Jul 18, 2008 03:22AM bethharte - good point. And the fact that people can listen/lurk first without feeling they "need to talk" helps the extrovert too.
GHollingsworth says Jul 18, 2008 03:22AM alright, it's been a blast, but Burn Notice is getting lonely on the Tivo (so is the wife and the dogs). Night everyone.
DebInAustin says Jul 18, 2008 03:23AM TimJackson I had never thought to use Technorati that way before. Good to know. I have done blog searches, but on T'rati they are aggregate
davidalston Jul 18, 2008 03:23AM kmunse - good point. timjackson - how much proactive engagement do you do vs. reactive?
Tim Jackson Jul 18, 2008 03:23AM Templestark- yes, it sure can be. I use my blog to solicit feedback to better create bikes for the readers. They tell me what they want.
Beth Harte is Jul 18, 2008 03:24AM sorry to leave, but I need to get up early tomorrow. This has been great! Look for a recap tomorrow night! Thanks all!
DebInAustin says Jul 18, 2008 03:25AM TimJackson do you think your audience was pre-disposed to read blogs/comment so they found you, or they learned of you and wen to your blog
Tim Jackson Jul 18, 2008 03:25AM David- I try to get out at least a few times/week. I don't check T'rati as much as I would like lately, but I go hunting for blogs to reach
davidalston Jul 18, 2008 03:25AM I should probably hit the hay too since I'm AST and it's 12:30am Great convo. Thx all. Thx timjackson
Connie Jul 18, 2008 03:26AM I subscibe to T'rati searches in feed reader, also Bloglines, and of course Google Alerts.
davidalston Jul 18, 2008 03:27AM timJackson - would love to dothe vulcan mind meld with you sometime on the whole proactive outreach stuff.
Tim Jackson Jul 18, 2008 03:27AM Deb- I think it has been both. I would imagine that my Taiwan readers found me through trade mags, then it spread from there.
miketempleton Jul 18, 2008 03:28AM davidalston, the Vulcan mind meld is not something to take lightly.
miketempleton Jul 18, 2008 03:29AM I'm out for now. Great conversation everyone. Thanks for pulling me in from only being a lurker and getting me to engage.
Connie Jul 18, 2008 03:30AM Glad I was able to join in tonight. Been very long day. At least I don't have to be downtown early in the morning. Good night, all.
Tim Jackson Jul 18, 2008 03:30AM Yes Beth- thanks again for being the Hostess w/ the Mostest. And for the cool intro. Loved it.
davidalston Jul 18, 2008 03:31AM timjackson - ping you on it forsure then. I've been building our brand a lot this way and alway love to compare notes.
Tim Jackson Jul 18, 2008 03:31AM MikeT- getting you off the ledge and into the conversation is my biggest victory for the day.
Connie Jul 18, 2008 03:32AM Tim, thanks for the gift of you time and expertise. I know it was a sacrifice on a night when you still have a lot of work.
Tim Jackson Jul 18, 2008 03:33AM So at a bit under 650 comments, we'll wrap this up.T Thanks to all for "engaging" in Conversation w/ me!
DebInAustin says Jul 18, 2008 03:33AM yeah Tim, sorry I missed a lot of this, but learned a ton from you in the short time I was here. You always do such a great job.
MackCollier says Jul 18, 2008 03:34AM Tim sorry I missed most of this, but I have it bookmarked and this looks to be about the most active one yet! Great job!
AmberCadabra Jul 18, 2008 03:35AM TimJackson you are, and continue to be, my hero! Great topic, great insights. Thanks friend.
Tim Jackson Jul 18, 2008 03:35AM Mack- it should be a good read. I can't wait to go through it again too because it was a flurry. Know I missed stuff.
sarunasr says Jul 18, 2008 04:30AM just breezed through, sorry I missed it. Didn't want to leave you handing at 666
Connie Jul 18, 2008 04:36AM Plurk had a bad lag for me - would want to chime in on something and by the time I could, convo had gone in different diections.
sarunasr says Jul 18, 2008 04:44AM Connie one thing that twitter has over plurk is a number of apps written for it
Connie Jul 18, 2008 04:45AM Yes, but Twitter has lowered API server requests to 20/hr - really kills the 3rd party apps.
sarunasr says Jul 18, 2008 04:51AM first I thought it was my connection, but here I have not problems