Plurk

490 responses to this plurk (Jump to bottom)

  • AmberCadabra
    note: if you're on the plurk page above, you'll have to refresh manually.
  • pchaney says
    Hi David
  • pierrefar
    Hi :-) First time here.
  • anniemal
    oh, this is a genius idea
  • martinbogo
    doesn't seem to work in FF3
  • Te-ge
    Hi everyone :-)
  • martinbogo
    I'm logged in, but can't seem to post
  • tipzu says
    hey! I'm ready.
  • Te-ge says
    martin, I'm seeing your posts.
  • giggey says
    hi all, tried plurkify but I can't seem to post.
  • davidalston says
    hi all, the room seems to be blocking my posts as well. Will do this from the plurk page instead (yay, refresh)
  • martinbogo
    I also can't post on Plurkify
  • MackCollier says
    hi guys, and thanks for hosting David!
  • martinbogo
    There was a change in the API today ...
  • Connie
    If you load the Plurk page, you will have to manually refresh. If you follow it in your timeline, it should auto-refresh.
  • davidalston says
    let's do this on the plurk page and abandon plurkify room as it's having troubles.
  • pchaney is
    wondering how he's going to monitor this and Chris Brogan's webinar. :-(
  • Bakla says
    hello
  • davidalston says
    sorry pchaney - bad timing - we didn't know about the conflict in advance.
  • davidalston says
    well let's kick this off.
  • danalookadoo is
    also watching CrossTech Webinar on 2nd monitor
  • pritcharddesign is
    wondering how I'm going to manage the plurkshop & webinar, too!
  • davidalston asks
    what are the reasons to measure social media?
  • MackCollier says
    danalookadoo is showing off ;-)
  • pchaney says
    a pox upon Chris Brogan! :-D
  • AmberCadabra
    Everyone wants that special word: ROI
  • Connie
    ROI is the magic word people are looking for and it is much harder to quantify/qualify with social media.
  • GHollingsworth
    Measuring social media depends on what you're using it for, in the marketing world we measure for monetization
  • davidalston shares
    something great I read - do you want to measure the "social" or the "media"
  • pchaney says
    Measurement is not only about $, but about lending credibility to social media as a marketnig tool.
  • potsie says
    the reasons are similar to why we measure traditional media - clients want to know "how they did"
  • Connie
    Excellent distinction.
  • pierrefar says
    surely it's both - the "channel" if you will?
  • GHollingsworth
    there is a distinct need to measure social as it relates to media.
  • MackCollier says
    I think the biggest source of confusion is that cos see Social Media as being marketing, and want 2 apply same metrics
  • davidalston
    When we treat it like a "media" do we lean towards the ROI measurements?
  • giggey says
    someone told me once that instead of thinking of return on investment, think about return on initiative to get the complete picture
  • storyspinner
    trouble is coming from the "search" background, so many clients are thinking it's about links and measuring that.. when that's not it's goal
  • pritcharddesign
    I agree with pchaney, as well. A history needs to be created to convince clients.
  • davidalston
    Marketing metrics - are they more one way metrics?
  • AmberCadabra
    I think you have to measure SM more like you to BizDev, where not every interaction is going to have a tangible vlue
  • pchaney says
    in order for it to gain wide acceptance social media will have to prove its value in terms of ROI
  • MackCollier says
    the prob is cos want to immediately know what they will get back, but it takes time to get quantifiable results
  • MackCollier says
    like it took Dell 2 years to see blog mentions fall so dramatically that they could tell their SM efforts were working
  • BarbaraKB has
    found *vital* to determine measurement standards from start. Not always easy to establish. Try to keep simple.
  • AmberCadabra
    and how do you mollify a CMO that wants impact right now?
  • davidalston
    social media = relationships = time to develop ?
  • storyspinner
    so to a degree, the measurement, someone needs to be a cross between PR measuring & web analytics
  • GHollingsworth
    The issue I see most often is trying to define SM in terms of direct marketing, it has to be able to show something in terms of ROI
  • MackCollier says
    right, you make money with social media INdirectly, not directly. Many cos can't wrap their heads around that
  • pchaney says
    yep, sm is not a "campaign," but an ongoing conversation. Got t b n it for the long term.
  • storyspinner
    err.. somewhat needs to be (in my last plurk)
  • nowsourcing says
    greetings all. My updates aren't showing up in the Plurkify room :-(
  • AmberCadabra
    davidalston YES. but then it's "ok how much time, and then still, how do you show me success"
  • contrapuntist
    agrees with MackCollier most clients expect results ASAP, when they don't see results right away, frustration builds
  • davidalston
    good point Mack - Barbara - what are some of the standards you use?
  • MackCollier says
    if used properly, SM leads to more connections with customers, more feedback, which means more efficient (costs less) marketing
  • pritcharddesign
    absolutely. Companies want instant results. Social media is long term.
  • pierrefar says
    What about trends? If we can't use the absolute numbers, we can at least look at how they trend over time.
  • MackCollier says
    cos want to think of social media as being marketing channels to monetize, not as communication channels
  • contrapuntist
    the "indirect" impact MackCollier mentions is one reason why some orgs think SM is a waste of time
  • GHollingsworth says
    trying to convince old school direct marketers of the value of social media can be very difficult in my experience
  • karenswim says
    my posts were not showing up in plurkify either :-(
  • GHollingsworth thinks
    that to do so you have to create very malleable goals that your SM cam[paign is trying to reach
  • AmberCadabra
    I think like making money from SM, other results are more indirect
  • karenswim says
    contrapuntist the indirect is why some orgs don't "get" much of marketing
  • AmberCadabra
    shorter sales cycle, maybe. more repeat clients/referrals. better customer service feedback.
  • Te-ge thinks
    it's like Connie said once, How do you measure the usefulness of company get togethers?
  • pchaney says
    MackCollier - Can't it be both? "Markets are conversations"
  • Te-ge says
    SM is just as useful (or more) and just as hard to measure accurately.
  • potsie says
    storyspinner - it may be about links for some clients. Measuring social media means different things for different clients.
  • karenswim says
    Greg, agreed or you are aiming at unclear target and effort is not results
  • LaShae says
    direct marketers want immediate roi - what is immediate about SM
  • Stephanator
    So, how do you convince clients that SM will give them positive results?
  • karllong is
    i think the problem is that social media has such a broad scope and affects so many aspects of business
  • danalookadoo wants
    to understand how to capture data on relationships. And does anyone want to feel their relationship is being measured?
  • karllong is
    SM in the context of new product development very different than PR around a product launch
  • GHollingsworth wishes
    he could get DM people to understand that SM is the ultimate form of one-on-one direct marketing
  • AmberCadabra
    maybe it's a goalsetting issue: not understanding really what the endgame should be from your efforts in SM aside from just revenue.
  • contrapuntist thinks
    there needs to be a greater differentiation between engagement versus making the sale
  • karenswim says
    as we blend the disciplines of SEO, SMO and SM it becomes more complex
  • davidalston
    sweet2685 - convince them it's more about relationships than marketing (hard to do but key)
  • DaveWebb says
    Howdy all, a little late.
  • pritcharddesign thinks
    SM is also potentially more effective purely due to access to people who are listening!
  • MackCollier says
    Paul when you try to directly monetize SM, you run into probs, IMO. Have to provide value first, then connections come and then money
  • Connie asks
    DavidAlston How can monitoring/measuring tools like Radian6 help us convince clients of the value of SM?
  • storyspinner
    defining what the "R" is of the "ROI" is the true issue when it comes to social media
  • GHollingsworth
    Karen, exactly. I had to figure ways to define success out of the normal CPA acquisition targets we run on
  • AmberCadabra
    i don't understand why many folks embrace BD as relationship building, but not SM
  • sschablow asks
    is customer satisfaction and loyalty a metric that has short term results that corp types understand?
  • potsie says
    sweet2685 Define "positive results" with the client. How do they define success - more visitors, sales, links, etc.
  • Te-ge thinks
    you also have to convince them that relationships are important, David
  • GHollingsworth
    SM in marketing bears more resemblance to PR than to standard marketing, it's this shift that is hard to sell sometimes
  • giggey says
    it's about relationships and can't put a price on the real relationships.If you build them with $$ as a bottom line, they aren't as valuable
  • bhamlibby asks
    is social media similar to general branding by way of measurement? hard to quantify, but also crucial to engaging public perception.
  • davidalston
    connie - mapping out influencers, tracking effectiveness of outreach over time, showing share of brand buzz vs. competitors etc...
  • karenswim says
    Amber I honestly believe it is the labeling itself that delivers the perception
  • BarbaraKB says
    (need to leave. phone socnet fire - yikes!)
  • Connie
    Good point, Greg, about SM and PR in contrast to traditional marketing.
  • pchaney says
    mackcollier - I misspoke with last statement. I'm not thinking of marketing specifically in DM terms.
  • GHollingsworth
    sschablow, it depends on how the client already measures those things, it may be, but not an easy sell
  • karenswim says
    if it were called BDM, people would not immed dismiss as a "time suck"
  • potsie says
    thepunk So true. Coming from the PR side, some of our clients probably think "that's an ad/marketing function..."
  • davidalston
    good point karenswim - we are starting to refer to social media as the social web (dropping the media)
  • Connie
    agrees that the term social media has been a sticking point for many.
  • GHollingsworth
    it doesn't matter what you call it, DM people still want hard measurable stats that tell them what they're getting out of it in $
  • AmberCadabra
    "social" has a casual connotation that undermines its credibility in the business world
  • davidalston
    What would you measure other than ROI?
  • pchaney says
    As to need for SM, if our customer base is there (think Forrester technographics) how can we not be, regardless of direct monetary benefit.
  • pritcharddesign thinks
    many marketers are also waiting to see if social media (web) will end up being more than a buzz word.
  • GHollingsworth
    I think for many DM people they equate social media with social networking and see it as an ad space and little more
  • Connie
    I remind ppl that "social" simply refers to people as opposed to "computer". They understand computer networks. Social media is people net
  • MackCollier says
    but at the same time, the term 'social media' is what everyone is used to. If you change it, then it confuses and dilutes meaning IMO
  • MackCollier says
    a lot of people hate the term 'web 2.0', but everyone is used to it, why change boats now?
  • giggey says
    tone of the conversation, like ideastorm...number of new ideas
  • AmberCadabra
    contrapuntist i mean in the term "social media", it's the "social" part that throws people off
  • sschablow says
    Greg Hollingsworth good point. Most of my clients do at least an annual brand awareness study. Only a few do cust satisfaction
  • danalookadoo thinks
    storyspinner has point about R of ROI. R should be redefined - Relationships, Opportunity, Investment
  • Connie says
    pchaney raises a good point. What is the cost of NOT being in the social media/web space?
  • pritcharddesign thinks
    the business world needs to catch up with the people.
  • davidalston
    certainly it mostly describes "online conversations" IMO
  • AmberCadabra
    mackcollier I don't think we need to change the term, i think we need to redefine what "social" means in this space
  • pchaney thinks
    that he prefers the term "conversational media" better. :-)
  • Connie says
    Or should we change the I of ROI. Return on involvement.
  • AmberCadabra
    connie it depends on if your community is there or not. But if they are, you'll be left behind because your competitors are doing it.
  • MackCollier says
    Connie that's the prob, many cos wont bother with SM till they see a competitor makin hay with it
  • giggey says
    jowyang has a post today about the differences between social media and communities...there's another term for us
  • potsie thinks
    consumer generated media morphed into social media will morph into another term...
  • Connie
    Mack, that means we need more case studies to show SM successes.
  • AmberCadabra
    age old issue of be a trailblazer or a follower. but being a trailblazer carries risk of failure, which turns companies off.
  • GHollingsworth
    Community Building is the best description I can think of to describe how SM can be used as a marketing tool
  • karenswim says
    davidalston online conversations but also reputation/brand mgmt
  • GHollingsworth
    SM is about community, trust, transparency and engagement. These are all things that good companies should be willing to embrace
  • pchaney says
    we need to send copies of GroundSwell to every CEO!
  • Te-ge
    giggey he also has one on the importance of conversation. LOL I don't think he appreciated my comments on Twitter. :-)
  • AmberCadabra
    agrees that we need to get vigilant with capturing and sharing case studies among this community
  • karenswim says
    agree with connie more case studies are needed
  • Connie
    Goes back to similarity with PR - SM helps build good will. Cannot easily measure that, but you know when you don't have it.
  • Telemill
    Until there are 'examples', clear examples of companies using social media for gain, there will always be this issue.
  • MackCollier says
    right, I am sick of talking about Dell ;-)
  • pchaney says
    the Groundswell is replete with case studies.
  • karenswim says
    Like return on involvement connie!
  • Connie
    Groundswell is a great resource.
  • potsie feels
    thepunk is right, but it's more than building communities - it's also listening/monitoring to gauge interests/likes/dislikes. Listen first
  • Telemill
    I think its also an issue of education. College courses are remiss in teaching students the "need" the true effectiveness of networks.
  • MackCollier says
    paul I thought it was very interesting how in Groundswell they broke down exact cost and money that GM made from its blog in first year
  • GHollingsworth
    the problem with case studies is that they can't be readily applied across industry segments
  • AmberCadabra
    connie you're onto something there. maybe it's not measuring the "what do we get" but "what are we missing if we don't"
  • davidalston
    what are some good examples of companies listening and engaging in social media?
  • karllong is
    yeah, that and the Cluetrain, and Here Comes Everybody :-)
  • danalookadoo wants
    to know if there is a good way to explain SM without using terms we, the insiders, use. Layman's explanation?
  • Telemill
    Seriously, if we looked at companies and individuals that we deem successful . . . what do they have that others don't?
  • GHollingsworth
    sorry, I meant across *all* industry segments, thus they aren't always useful
  • AbleReach asks
    is sm more like the networking behind the scenes of face to face marketing, in that you need to know what's happening w/audience & friends
  • Telemill
    Control of a network.
  • Connie has
    anyone tried to use Stowe Boyd's formula for Conversation Quotient? It looks at comments/trackbacks in ration to # of blog posts.
  • AbleReach asks
    and audience/friends need to know what's going on with you? (unlike straight SEO)
  • karenswim says
    telemill agreed however think of other mktng efforts such as trade shows not always a 1:1 but cos understand need 2 participate in key shows
  • AmberCadabra
    Greg in literal terms, maybe not, but we need to help companies understand the undercurrents that exist regarless of industry
  • karllong thinks
    Plurk needs threading, that would make this much more usable for long discussions like this
  • MackCollier says
    i polled my blog readers a couple of weeks ago, the content they most wanted to see was social media case studies
  • MackCollier says
    everyone wants to see the potential quantified
  • Beth Harte says
    hi all, furiously reading....
  • GHollingsworth
    AmberCadabra agreed, there need to be more readily accessible success stories
  • davidalston asks
    can you measure the importance of listening? OR is it the essence of what all biz's need to be doing?
  • MackCollier says
    I think if Dell can ever directly tie a concrete growth in sales/business back to social media, that it will be huge
  • sschablow says
    even the best case studies I've seen use involvement as the metric for success. Hard to convince corp to invest $$ w/o business case.
  • AbleReach asks
    SEO relates to dominating a search result & demonstrating trust, not so much in a relationship that will make people search for YOU
  • giggey thinks
    that once we see more empirical research in academic journals we'll have a better case. Need objective, empirical research
  • DaveWebb
    Me too, bethharte. Trying to keep up. Plurk not refreshing live for me.
  • MackCollier says
    and I know about dell outlet on twitter, i am talking about showing how their spending time interacting in this space = %growth
  • pchaney says
    davidalston - not including Dell, there's Natl. Comp. Cancer Network
  • Connie
    Dell can point to approx. $500K in direct sales from their Twitter account.
  • AmberCadabra
    davidalston i think that's preaching to the choir, here. :-) two ears one mouth and all that.
  • seerysm says
    my focus is on employer branding and we assess & monitor the # of and tone of SM mentions related to a company and employment
  • sschablow says
    davidalston good point on 'listening'. there are good cases of co's that listen and provide new/better prod/svcs that became profitable.
  • Telemill
    MackCollier and there lays the problem. The method is really "too new" to have a variety of case studies that would satisfy their need
  • karllong says
    mackcollier the content and examples are out there Dell, Threadless, Yelp, Fiskerters lots of case studies
  • MackCollier says
    Connie, if they can ever point to sales from Richard and Lionel being on Twitter, then we have something HUGE
  • Telemill
    . . . for undeniable "proof"
  • danalookadoo wants
    to know if someone has put together SM case studies? Zappos is awesome. WholeFoods sharing food info on Twitter.
  • potsie thinks
    yes, you can davidalston Show companies how they missed opportunities by not listening. Show them traffic #s on boards that matter.
  • AbleReach asks
    so SEO = research serps, & sm = influencer of decisions that come after or parallel to research.
  • karenswim says
    what about Zappos?
  • GHollingsworth
    Southwest has done a fair job using the space, but I don't know if they could tie revenue to it.
  • AmberCadabra
    sschablow I think the issue is in convincing the companies that they NEED the involvement. Many don't think it's necessary.
  • karllong says
    I think the issue is cultural, in a big company the people responsible in PR and Mktg are the most threatened by loss of control
  • davidalston asks
    mackCollier - Dell rev up 20% EPS up 29% but still need to find the "tie" to social media
  • seerysm says
    and then we look at how that changes over time (the number and tone) as participation increases
  • MackCollier says
    and speaking of Zappos, its great that they are all over twitter, now how has that increased sales? we all think it has, but numbers?
  • GHollingsworth
    I know H&R Block claims to have seen a boost from their efforts, although I find it hard to believe they saw a significant increase
  • MackCollier says
    David, exactly! We *think* their being in SM is working, but we need proof to convince the naysayers
  • Connie
    Mack, how can you tie a great story in WSJ about your product to bottom line impact of sales? Same with SM.
  • davidalston
    amberCadabra - funny eh - companies would never question "involvement" with incoming phone calls :-)
  • karllong says
    davidalston look at the amount of ideas on ideastorm over the course of time, tie that to rise in EPS
  • pchaney says
    GM Fast Lane blog was as much about listening as speaking.
  • giggey thinks
    we need to make the leap from correlation to causality. We have examples of succesful Cos, who also use social media.need to prove causality
  • MackCollier says
    naysayers say 'show me the money, or shut up'
  • DaveWebb
    I agree, Amber. There has to be a demonstration of value. Common ROI metrics don't always do that
  • AmberCadabra
    the prob is, the path of community back from SM channels to the company can be a winding one
  • sschablow says
    H&R Block has stated that they are in SM for the long haul as a long-term strategy to build younger client base.
  • Beth Harte says
    karllong those mktrs and PR folks need to learn that they lost control long ago.
  • karenswim says
    mack w/Zappos I also wonder if the twitter participation has + impact on employee value which leads to greater customer satisfaction
  • davidalston
    mackCollier - perhaps further integration of social media into all aspects of biz and systems can track the ties.
  • contrapuntist
    wonders if the tie between SM and link to $$ is integrating as a support for other marketing efforts
  • AmberCadabra
    davidalston no kidding. but they don't want their customers necessarily giving them feedback, just sales
  • pchaney says
    I think it's undeniable that retail sites that have ratings and reviews exp. bump in traffic, engagement and....sales.
  • MackCollier says
    David good point, like does letting employees use these tools increase morale?
  • Connie thinks
    PR missed the boat by not taking the lead in SM. They are more accustomed to measuring "soft" benefits of their work.
  • GHollingsworth
    sschablow, that's true. But they're approaching it with a definite DM approach, they're not listening unless they hear certain words
  • Telemill
    sschablow points something out that is a problem in the US, well a problem with corps in the US -- long-term strategies
  • MackCollier says
    I am loving the discussion guys, great stuff!
  • denise205 asks
    karenswim, so is the measurement we need one of customer satisfaction?
  • AbleReach asks
    remember those phone company ads where a busy signal symbolized losing business? We need a pr campaign like that for SM
  • Te-ge says
    I wonder how many companies look at newspapers and say using SM didn't help them, why should we expect it to either.
  • Telemill
    US corps are notorious for not engaging and taking seriously -- long-term strategies.
  • davidalston
    mackcollier - or if someone is looking to buy "x" and you reach out and connect and end up with sale (tying this to the outreach)
  • AmberCadabra
    connie you're so right. the irony is that my newest client is a PR firm because they now realize they've been left behind
  • GHollingsworth
    Great point Connie. I've been trying to convince our PR people to get on board for over a year. Its as if they resent SM at this point
  • Connie says
    Contrapuntist has good point about seeing SM as *support* for other marketing
  • potsie
    Connie PR folks use ad equivalency to bring some sort of measure to WSJ stories and the like. Not perfect, but it's a $$ figure to report.
  • karenswim says
    MackCollier and increase that connection they feel to the "value" of their job which is proven morale booster
  • Telemill
    This is why Toyota is #1 now, because they make it company CULTURE to think 40 years down the line. Not tomorrow, not 5 years from now, 40.
  • AmberCadabra thinks
    i have my hands full with this recap! LOL :-)
  • potsie thinks
    Connie needs to check out some of the PR-lead SM projects that are out there. Plenty of PR "gets" SM and uses it well.
  • GHollingsworth
    good point Telemill. However, it's easier to plan long term when you have coffers the size of Toyota's
  • DaveWebb
    Teeg re:newspapers True to those who don't get it, but no so for those who do.
  • karenswim says
    Telemill yes, yes! Focus on long term just as you do with your $
  • Connie asks
    DavidAlston Can you address potsie's point about PR using "ad equivalency" to measure. Any analogy to SM?
  • Beth Harte shares
    PR uses impressions too. That might be a measurement that can be used in SM too that PR folks can relate to.
  • giggey thinks
    the people from PerkettPR do a good job using SM tools
  • sschablow says
    telemill with the average CMO tenure at 18 months, there is no reason to have long-term strategy.
  • Connie says
    "potsie" agree that many PR people now "get" social media. But by and large PR has been very slow to adopt SM.
  • karenswim says
    denise205 I think that is a part of measuring customer engagement
  • Connie
    SHIFT communications is another example of PR company using social media tools.
  • MackCollier says
    but I think as companies hire more younger workers that are more familiar with social sites/tools, cultures will become more open
  • Telemill
    GregHollingsworth, see? That's the US thinking I was talking about. The funny part of that is they BEGAN with long-term thinking.
  • DaveWebb
    Case for newspapers - mommy bloggers have had huge impact on Cincinnati Enquirer
  • davidalston
    connie - good question - point to consider with SM is that it's more like 2 way communication device than a media. U agree?
  • giggey thinks
    Thornley Fallis another PR example
  • pchaney says
    connie and ad agencies even slower.
  • Connie
    When it comes to "impressions" to measure PR, that's where tools like Radian6, or even the standard Google Alert, can help quantify SM.
  • GHollingsworth
    In my specific case, the issue has been trying to impress on DM folks the importance of brand expansion through SM as cost effective
  • contrapuntist
    potsie what I am talking about is allowing a word of mouth strategy to dictate communications planning
  • bhamlibby thinks
    from what i've heard/seen on the whole, most ad agencies are making SM part of PR.
  • pchaney says
    to reflect on davidalston 's question earlier SM has given us the ability to make listening an art and science.
  • contrapuntist
    ... that means incorporating all other marketing elements which include SM and PR and all others
  • Connie
    davidalston, agree that SM is 2-way rather than tradtl. media.
  • AmberCadabra
    contrapuntist Do you mean allowing the community to lead your strategy and allow it to evolve based on them?
  • epodcaster says
    I'm late to this, but I have to agree with connie. The I is Involvement. Getting business to understand this is key
  • DebInAustin says
    I am giving up. I wrote a number of PR related plurks and none of them showed up in the thread. Look forward to the recap.
  • pchaney says
    and listening is the basis for everything else. Hence, if nothing else, SM has a place there.
  • GHollingsworth
    In my specific case, the issue has been trying to impress on DM folks the importance of brand expansion through SM as cost effective
  • contrapuntist
    no.. there is disconnect between SM and all other disciplines
  • giggey thinks
    it still comes down to obj of research. Lots of whitepapers and case studies from vendors. Great start, now we need more
  • AmberCadabra
    bhamlibby but on the same front I see a lot of ad agencies using it to push content, but not to drive their clients to engage
  • GHollingsworth
    In my specific case, the issue has been trying to impress on DM folks the importance of brand expansion through SM as cost effective
  • contrapuntist
    what I mean is think about how SM as a tool supports what you hope to achieve
  • GHollingsworth
    SM is about engagement, and Amber is right, too often it is used to push content, not to start discussions
  • Connie
    got logged out somehow. Plurk has the hiccups.
  • davidalston
    Things you can measure are social dynamics on posts (comment count, views, unique commenters, level of engagement) and relationships2 others
  • sschablow says
    Chris Brogan and his guest now talking about SM and ROI in webinar.
  • epodcaster says
    every business wants raving fans. SM is the way to not only find them but to connect with them.
  • DaveWebb
    davidalston agree that it is more like 2-way communication, but also is means of distribution.
  • Connie
    contrapuntist if I understand right, your point is that SM is distinct from all other disciplines in that it exists to support them?
  • GHollingsworth
    another part of the problem is the integration of DM into SM spaces (e.g. Beacon on Facebook)
  • davidalston
    sschablow - lets do a cross platform connection to them - that would be cool.
  • epodcaster says
    So perhaps the Return on Involvement is the discovery of the raving fans?
  • GHollingsworth
    doesn't SM have to be 2-way communication to be SM? One person speaking to an empty room isn't very social
  • Te-ge
    got logged out too, Connie. Not sure what's going on with it.
  • Connie
    Plurk is updating API and we may experience some technical difficulties. If necessary, log back in & go here: www.plurk.com/p/18etd
  • bhamlibby
    AmberCadabra, that's def. true, I think many are using old techniques just puttin them in 'new media', which doesnt work.
  • davidalston
    epodcaster - "the longtail" and influencer discover process is very valuable to any brand
  • potsie
    agree contrapuntist but some companies aren't ready for it. Use WoM to learn interests if customers and then fold back into programs
  • karenswim says
    I'm back in are we still live?
  • GHollingsworth
    I work for a small company that exists solely due to DM, we can't afford traditional "brand advertising"
  • storyspinner
    thought that logging out was just me..
  • MackCollier says
    or is it Return on Interaction?
  • Telemill
    No, plurk had problems we all got booted.
  • GHollingsworth
    SM has the ability to be a very cost effective form of brand advertising (minus the advertising portion)but they still see it in terms of DM
  • contrapuntist
    connie my point is that because many orgs don't get it, perhaps thinking of it as a support for other activities might help biz understand
  • Connie
    Mack, I said Involvement, but Interaction is another good word.
  • Telemill
    Wait, wait . . . let's go back to the "engaging" statements. The 2-way communication idea.
  • MackCollier says
    should we call it Return on Interaction?
  • davidalston
    Greg, many other companies (Radian6 included) have primarily relied on SM and WOM for the same reasons to build their brand.
  • Telemill
    Do you think THAT is the fear? This is a 2-way communication, that companies really don't want to "engage", they just want to
  • contrapuntist
    connie has the distinct advantage that traditional media doesn't you can track response to what ever is out there
  • sschablow says
    care to try and measure interaction? Quality of experience, time spent, attitude change?
  • pchaney says
    in trad. media marketing ROI stands for "Return On Interruption"; now, that's not working so well.
  • GHollingsworth
    but the more DM programs SM sites put it into place, the more it muddies the waters for DM folk, who see it as DM and not as engagement
  • contrapuntist
    er. Meant to say SM has the distinct advantage
  • giggey has
    to head out...thanks all!
  • Telemill
    quickly make the product/service and move on to making more money. Because when you say 2-way, engagement, relationship that DOES
  • LaShae says
    @ dave more than just 2 way communication it's a way to find out what needs to be *distributed* ie what information r those talking, missing
  • epodcaster says
    MackCollier: Yes it is. ROI in the "Web 2.0" world is Return on Interaction/Return on Involvement which leads to Return on Investment
  • pchaney says
    because shouting doesn't work, and people are talking to each other, SM engagement is a matter of self-defense.
  • GHollingsworth
    DaveWebb of course, unless you've spent the whole of it's existence relying on DM
  • Telemill
    mean more time and effort.
  • Connie
    Contrapuntist your point is interesting; I do see how SM can serve a support function for various disciplines.
  • DaveWebb
    Man, I have a serious delay. Making it almost impossible to keep up. have to refresh manually constantly.
  • sschablow says
    MackCollier interaction would be great. It's like ad biz discussion of measuring 'engagement'
  • Te-ge has
    a thought building that isn't fully developed yet, but what if trying to show a return is the problem.
  • GHollingsworth
    SM can be an awesome branding tool for small business, but if your boss is an old school direct marketer it can be hard to sell to them
  • Te-ge
    what if instead you show the cost of NOT using SM?
  • Connie
    Teeg, I like that idea - but how do you quanityf the cost of NOT being engaged?
  • pchaney says
    DaveWebb - I think it's hard for small biz to gain enough attention; depending on their prod/service of course.
  • Beth Harte says
    GregHollingsworth, I am planning on using DM to promote SM. There is potential measurement in that to make folks who like numbers happy.
  • MackCollier says
    i think cos need to realize that with social media, they have to get their hands dirty, they have to provide value
  • GHollingsworth
    Teeg, is that any different than showing the cost OF using SM?
  • davidalston
    Greg, as long as you can show a connection to potential customers each week you'll stay alive :-)
  • karenswim says
    Connie Teeg exactly, it still returns to concrete metrics, you lose X for NOT participating
  • Jane Chin says
    I deal with the ROI problem in my niche segment (medical influence) and no matter what RO(x) you call it, it all comes down to:
  • epodcaster says
    pchaney: I couldnt' agree more. I am so OVER being talked/shouted AT. Talk WITH me. Listen and interact.
  • Jane Chin says
    I deal with the ROI problem in my niche segment (medical influence) and no matter what RO(x) you call it, it all comes down to
  • Jane Chin says
    MONEY saved or money earned.
  • GHollingsworth
    bethharte I've been down that road, it worked, just not well enough to continue down the path for our company
  • davidalston
    mackcollier - good point. Imagine taking $millions from ad budget and employing 1000's of people to listen and engage?
  • potsie
    must run - interesting discussion.
  • Jane Chin says
    (sorry for the hiccup. using plurk page)
  • AmberCadabra is
    it just me, or do some of these companies seem downright afraid of conversing with their customers?
  • karenswim says
    Mack right and that IS the problem for many
  • Connie
    David, what can be measured to show engagement? Comments on blog posts? Links on Twitter? Mentions in online media?
  • Beth Harte says
    ...but SM helps when not a lot of budget dollars are available. As well, it's easier for SMBs to give up control & welcome interaction.
  • GHollingsworth
    davidalston can I get that in writing so I can show it to our VP of Marketing?
  • Jane Chin says
    mackcollier I do think companies believe they are providing value with their "push" mentality. Perhaps need to define "what" value to "whom
  • karenswim says
    janechin good point!
  • Te-ge
    Amber, they do. Even now, many will write blog and leave the comments off
  • pritcharddesign thinks
    yes, they're afraid. They're used to preplanning their message.
  • epodcaster says
    bethharte: Plurkshops are a great way to brainstorm concepts/ideas. I call it a "Braingasm" when it happens like this. :-)
  • GHollingsworth
    bethharte that depends on how you use the DM in relation to the SM
  • Te-ge
    Greg, yes, it's different. Sometimes it's possible to prove someone isn't guilty without proving they're innocent.
  • Telemill
    AmberCadabra "afraid of conversing with their customers" ding, ding, ding!
  • MackCollier says
    BTW almost 400 replies in first hour in middle of the day is amazing
  • Jane Chin
    pritcharddesign also any deviations in expected customer response means going back to square 1 and that's a lot of mtgs to attend again
  • Beth Harte asks
    what about NPS and CLV, has anyone used those metrics yet?
  • davidalston
    connie - inside SM - # comments, # posts, views, length of comments, on topic inbound linking etc...
  • GHollingsworth
    Great point Connie, how do we measure "connections to customers" that we can't necessarily attach a $ to?
  • ConnieBensen
    I was reading but missed a big chunk in the middle
  • Jane Chin
    why don't we use this plurkshop as an example and see what ROI could be? for ex. out 395 how much signal how much noise for whom to do what?
  • Te-ge says
    Plurks autocomplete isn't working :-(
  • karenswim says
    what about the service aspect of SM? One could argue it is an extension of customer service
  • LaShae says
    Teeg Amber definitely corps are in the business of control and that is how they got where they are - engrained habit is hard to give up
  • davidalston
    mackcollier - yes, awesome discussion all. I think we wanted to keep it to an hour. Shall we wrap up?
  • AmberCadabra
    janechin that's why cos have to take off the lead boots and learn to be more nimble. trad marketing makes for a slower reaction
  • Connie
    davidalston So there are a lot of things we can measure w/ SM, the question is assigning a $ value to it for those who insist on hard numbr
  • Beth Harte says
    AmberCadabra, yes! They are afraid! I have seen it first hand...with sales folks. Won't ask questions as simple as 'do you have a budget?'
  • bhamlibby
    AmberCadabra and Telemill, yes i think co. fear is one of the biggiest obstacles!
  • GHollingsworth has
    it been an hour? hardly feels like it
  • Jane Chin
    AmberCadabra agreed, but logistically the size of the co./mrkg dept becomes the factor to agility.
  • contrapuntist
    the tricky the some corps is moving past legal departments
  • AmberCadabra has
    it really been an hour? dang!
  • davidalston
    connie - yes, this is where the ability to analyze across a topic, time, against competitors, etc.. can help to quantify investment
  • Beth Harte asks
    Could we do a PlurkShop on NPS and CLV? Are they viable? How have they been used, etc. Thanks for the PlurkShop! Excellent as usual.
  • pchaney says
    got to go...thanks for great convo; can't wait for AmberCadabra 's wrapup.
  • karenswim says
    great discussion, hour flew by!
  • Connie
    Agree that it barely feels like an hour and we even had to battle the Plurk hiccups. Awesome conversation. We need a part 2!
  • GHollingsworth
    the trick with many DM'ers is convincing them that they've already "lost control" and holding on tighter won't help
  • Jane Chin
    oh well.... got in for the tail 5 mins :-)
  • Telemill
    We need a plurkshop on overcoming companies' fear of 2-way communication and letting go of the PUSH mentality.
  • davidalston wishes
    everyone a great rest of the day - thanks for the great discussion all.
  • sschablow says
    really enjoyed the discussion. Thanks to all for taking time and sharing.
  • GHollingsworth
    great conversation, just wish there hadn't have been so many plurk-ups
  • pchaney says
    many mini-convos going on at same time; need multiple threads to keep up. k, bye!
  • contrapuntist
    janechin yes in a way, whenever I have drafted something for a biz in response, it has to go through approval process
  • AmberCadabra
    I'd be up for a part 2, i think there's so much still to talk about
  • Jane Chin
    contrapuntist agreed. I work with pharma companies (compliance is huge) and some have begun using adherence to compliance as a metric.
  • contrapuntist
    sheesh I can't type fast enought today
  • karenswim says
    Thanks davidalston and all, this was time well spent. :-)
  • davidalston wishes
    ambercadabra - I'm up for a part 2 as well if you'd like. Let me know. Glad to help out.
  • Connie
    Amber, I think we barely scratched the surface. This is a very important topic to many of us.
  • bhamlibby
    bye - enjoyed it! (s_high_five)
  • Jane Chin
    AmberCadabra I'd like to contribute some comments as knowledge-based work metrics is a study area of mine but want to first read the transx
  • Connie
    Both AmberCadabra and I plan to do recaps. We will post the links when ready.
  • Jane Chin
    when's the deadline 4 emailing u
  • AmberCadabra
    thanks to everyone for your incredible insights. i can't wait to pull this all together and will post a link ASAP
  • epodcaster says
    I enjoyed finally being able to participate in a plurkshop. Great topic can't wait for the next one. Have a great day!
  • Te-ge says
    jowyang's article today won't help Telemill. He writes that joining the conversation is outdated.
  • davidalston
    connie - let's pick this up again in a few weeks and do a part 2 perhaps.
  • AmberCadabra
    janechin I'll be working on the recap and hope to have it up by tonight
  • contrapuntist
    janechin the only workaround I have come up with is drafting samples and a Q&A to make things more conversational
  • AmberCadabra
    but you can always leave a comment - i'll post it on my blog - so the conversation can continue
  • Connie
    DavidAlston, that sounds great. Would love to have your assistance with part 2 on this topic. Thanks so much for doing this!
  • Te-ge
    I look forward to reading the summaries. Thanks for leading it davidalston! :-)
  • MackCollier says
    would be great to have a plurkshop where we share/discuss social media case studies
  • davidalston
    connie - you are very welcome and thanks for asking me to take part in this. Was a great discussion.
  • Jane Chin
    ok. will content myself with reading your summary and commenting. contrapuntist ~scenario-based type of "training" it sounds like.
  • Jane Chin
    p.s. is the only plurkshop topic allowed related to social media?
  • Connie
    Weird. Plurk page shows only 377 responses. The timeline shows over 450. We are missing replies somehow.
  • MackCollier says
    great idea David, we need to show 'real-world' examples as they help validate entire space to cos
  • AmberCadabra
    janechin absolutely not, that's just the way they've been trending i think
  • MackCollier says
    jane no! what do you have in mind?
  • DaveWebb
    ConnieBensen Yeah I'm having problems following. Have to manual refresh constantly. Weird.
  • AmberCadabra
    whoa I just typed Connie...weird
  • DaveWebb
    whoops how did that happen???? I typed @ Connie!!
  • Te-ge says
    it's supposed to do that now, Amber, was added yesterday...but didn't work earlier with all the typing.
  • Connie
    That is weird. Plurk definitely having some hiccups today. And they updated the API right in the middle of our plurkshop!
  • Connie
    Hope they haven't gotten my account confused with Connie Bensen's.
  • DaveWebb
    O.K. I'm out. Too hard. But I'll go back & check it out.
  • Te-ge says
    Connie benson comes up first on the name list, and she typed in this conversation
  • DaveWebb
    BTW, I blogged about measuring intangibles a few months back.
  • Connie
    DaveWebb would like to read that post, please purk a link to it.
  • Connie
    Reading my mind ... :-)
  • DaveWebb
    Hope that's not a shameless plug. I think it's relevant
  • AmberCadabra
    alright Connie, we have our work cut out for us!!
  • DaveWebb
    There's two posts in that thread, btw. I recommend reading both. :-)
  • robins is
    ok, what did I miss? ; )
  • Jane Chin
    (sorry MackCollier i need to go as i have baby poop all over my office now) emergency cleanup.
  • martinbogo
    481 message overload!
  • NancyFaye says
    Coulndn't make the plurkshop live, but have read the posts. Great information. Hopefully I
  • vaxen_var thinks
    Plurk needs a smoother interface. Got here but in a rather round about way. So... Hello Plurkworld!
  • vaxen_var thinks
    Yeah, July 11th... one day too late! Better late than never? At least Amber tweets...
  • vaxen_var thinks
    Guess I'll have to hunt up some plurk people on Twitter then just ask questions about usage. Not fun at this stage...
  • vaxen_var says
    Thanks Amber. You sure are! :-D
  • vaxen_var says
    P presume this is 'live' now?
  • vaxen_var says
    Live is relative. Plurk is cumbersome, I'm outta here! ;-)

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