| davidalston | says | join us now - "Plurkshop" on social media monitoring/metrics - everyone welcome. |
Jul 10, 2008 -
05:56PM
| davidalston | says | join us now - "Plurkshop" on social media monitoring/metrics - everyone welcome. |
| davidalston | says | this is the plurk page - www.plurk.com/p/18etd |
| AmberCadabra | note: if you're on the plurk page above, you'll have to refresh manually. |
| beminedesign | is | Hi David |
| Stephanator | hello! |
| pchaney | says | Hi David |
| AmberCadabra | You can also use the plurkify room (more like a chat room) here: rooms.plurkify.com/18etd Login with your PlurkID and pwd (it's safe) |
| ThoughtWrong | says | hello hello |
| pierrefar | Hi  First time here. |
| anniemal | oh, this is a genius idea |
| martinbogo | doesn't seem to work in FF3 |
| Teeg | Hi everyone |
| karllong | is | hi  |
| martinbogo | I'm logged in, but can't seem to post |
| tipzu | says | hey! I'm ready. |
| giggey | says | hi all, tried plurkify but I can't seem to post. |
| ThoughtWrong | says | cant post at plurkify |
| davidalston | says | hi all, the room seems to be blocking my posts as well. Will do this from the plurk page instead (yay, refresh) |
| martinbogo | I also can't post on Plurkify |
| Connie | Here is the link to the plurk page: www.plurk.com/p/18etd |
| davidalston | says | to tdefren - no worries |
| MackCollier | says | hi guys, and thanks for hosting David! |
| martinbogo | There was a change in the API today ... |
| Connie | If you load the Plurk page, you will have to manually refresh. If you follow it in your timeline, it should auto-refresh. |
| davidalston | says | let's do this on the plurk page and abandon plurkify room as it's having troubles. |
| pchaney | is | wondering how he's going to monitor this and Chris Brogan's webinar.  |
| AmberCadabra | love technology sometimes.  |
| Debra Simpson | says | hello |
| Bakla | says | hello |
| davidalston | says | sorry pchaney - bad timing - we didn't know about the conflict in advance. |
| contrapuntist | is | hello |
| davidalston | says | well let's kick this off. |
| danalookadoo | is | also watching CrossTech Webinar on 2nd monitor |
| bhamlibby | says | hello |
| beminedesign | is | wondering how I'm going to manage the plurkshop & webinar, too! |
| BarbaraKB | wishes | davidalston well. You know I'm a Radian6 fan. |
| davidalston | asks | what are the reasons to measure social media? |
| MackCollier | says | danalookadoo is showing off |
| pchaney | says | a pox upon Chris Brogan!  |
| AmberCadabra | Everyone wants that special word: ROI |
| davidalston | loves | barbaraKB 's compliment |
| AmberCadabra | i spend X and I get Y. |
| Connie | ROI is the magic word people are looking for and it is much harder to quantify/qualify with social media. |
| GHollingsworth | Measuring social media depends on what you're using it for, in the marketing world we measure for monetization |
| davidalston | shares | something great I read - do you want to measure the "social" or the "media" |
| contrapuntist | says | the magic word: ROI |
| pchaney | says | Measurement is not only about $, but about lending credibility to social media as a marketnig tool. |
| potsie | says | the reasons are similar to why we measure traditional media - clients want to know "how they did" |
| Connie | Excellent distinction. |
| pierrefar | says | surely it's both - the "channel" if you will? |
| MackCollier | says | great point David |
| davidalston | good point potsie |
| GHollingsworth | there is a distinct need to measure social as it relates to media. |
| MackCollier | says | I think the biggest source of confusion is that cos see Social Media as being marketing, and want 2 apply same metrics |
| davidalston | When we treat it like a "media" do we lean towards the ROI measurements? |
| Chad Spacey | has | very nice  |
| giggey | says | someone told me once that instead of thinking of return on investment, think about return on initiative to get the complete picture |
| storyspinner | trouble is coming from the "search" background, so many clients are thinking it's about links and measuring that.. when that's not it's goal |
| beminedesign | I agree with pchaney, as well. A history needs to be created to convince clients. |
| davidalston | Marketing metrics - are they more one way metrics? |
| AmberCadabra | I think you have to measure SM more like you to BizDev, where not every interaction is going to have a tangible vlue |
| pchaney | says | in order for it to gain wide acceptance social media will have to prove its value in terms of ROI |
| MackCollier | says | the prob is cos want to immediately know what they will get back, but it takes time to get quantifiable results |
| MackCollier | says | like it took Dell 2 years to see blog mentions fall so dramatically that they could tell their SM efforts were working |
| BarbaraKB | has | found *vital* to determine measurement standards from start. Not always easy to establish. Try to keep simple. |
| AmberCadabra | and how do you mollify a CMO that wants impact right now? |
| davidalston | social media = relationships = time to develop ? |
| storyspinner | so to a degree, the measurement, someone needs to be a cross between PR measuring & web analytics |
| GHollingsworth | The issue I see most often is trying to define SM in terms of direct marketing, it has to be able to show something in terms of ROI |
| MackCollier | says | right, you make money with social media INdirectly, not directly. Many cos can't wrap their heads around that |
| pchaney | says | yep, sm is not a "campaign," but an ongoing conversation. Got t b n it for the long term. |
| storyspinner | err.. somewhat needs to be (in my last plurk) |
| nowsourcing | says | greetings all. My updates aren't showing up in the Plurkify room |
| AmberCadabra | davidalston YES. but then it's "ok how much time, and then still, how do you show me success" |
| contrapuntist | agrees with MackCollier most clients expect results ASAP, when they don't see results right away, frustration builds |
| davidalston | good point Mack - Barbara - what are some of the standards you use? |
| MackCollier | says | if used properly, SM leads to more connections with customers, more feedback, which means more efficient (costs less) marketing |
| beminedesign | absolutely. Companies want instant results. Social media is long term. |
| AmberCadabra | nowsourcing seems to be an issue there. we've all headed for the plurk page |
| davidalston | nowsourcing - just use the plurk page www.plurk.com/p/18etd Plurkify not working now. |
| pierrefar | says | What about trends? If we can't use the absolute numbers, we can at least look at how they trend over time. |
| MackCollier | says | cos want to think of social media as being marketing channels to monetize, not as communication channels |
| contrapuntist | the "indirect" impact MackCollier mentions is one reason why some orgs think SM is a waste of time |
| GHollingsworth | says | trying to convince old school direct marketers of the value of social media can be very difficult in my experience |
| karenswim | says | my posts were not showing up in plurkify either |
| GHollingsworth | thinks | that to do so you have to create very malleable goals that your SM cam[paign is trying to reach |
| AmberCadabra | I think like making money from SM, other results are more indirect |
| karenswim | says | contrapuntist the indirect is why some orgs don't "get" much of marketing |
| AmberCadabra | shorter sales cycle, maybe. more repeat clients/referrals. better customer service feedback. |
| pchaney | says | MackCollier - Can't it be both? "Markets are conversations" |
| Teeg | says | SM is just as useful (or more) and just as hard to measure accurately. |
| potsie | says | storyspinner - it may be about links for some clients. Measuring social media means different things for different clients. |
| karenswim | says | Greg, agreed or you are aiming at unclear target and effort is not results |
| LaShae | says | direct marketers want immediate roi - what is immediate about SM |
| Stephanator | So, how do you convince clients that SM will give them positive results? |
| karllong | is | i think the problem is that social media has such a broad scope and affects so many aspects of business |
| danalookadoo | wants | to understand how to capture data on relationships. And does anyone want to feel their relationship is being measured? |
| karllong | is | SM in the context of new product development very different than PR around a product launch |
| GHollingsworth | wishes | he could get DM people to understand that SM is the ultimate form of one-on-one direct marketing |
| AmberCadabra | maybe it's a goalsetting issue: not understanding really what the endgame should be from your efforts in SM aside from just revenue. |
| contrapuntist | thinks | there needs to be a greater differentiation between engagement versus making the sale |
| karenswim | says | as we blend the disciplines of SEO, SMO and SM it becomes more complex |
| davidalston | sweet2685 - convince them it's more about relationships than marketing (hard to do but key) |
| DaveWebb | says | Howdy all, a little late. |
| beminedesign | thinks | SM is also potentially more effective purely due to access to people who are listening! |
| MackCollier | says | Paul when you try to directly monetize SM, you run into probs, IMO. Have to provide value first, then connections come and then money |
| Connie | asks | DavidAlston How can monitoring/measuring tools like Radian6 help us convince clients of the value of SM? |
| storyspinner | defining what the "R" is of the "ROI" is the true issue when it comes to social media |
| GHollingsworth | Karen, exactly. I had to figure ways to define success out of the normal CPA acquisition targets we run on |
| AmberCadabra | i don't understand why many folks embrace BD as relationship building, but not SM |
| sschablow | asks | is customer satisfaction and loyalty a metric that has short term results that corp types understand? |
| GHollingsworth | SM in marketing bears more resemblance to PR than to standard marketing, it's this shift that is hard to sell sometimes |
| giggey | says | it's about relationships and can't put a price on the real relationships.If you build them with $$ as a bottom line, they aren't as valuable |
| bhamlibby | asks | is social media similar to general branding by way of measurement? hard to quantify, but also crucial to engaging public perception. |
| davidalston | connie - mapping out influencers, tracking effectiveness of outreach over time, showing share of brand buzz vs. competitors etc... |
| karenswim | says | Amber I honestly believe it is the labeling itself that delivers the perception |
| BarbaraKB | says | (need to leave. phone socnet fire - yikes!) |
| pchaney | says | mackcollier - I misspoke with last statement. I'm not thinking of marketing specifically in DM terms. |
| GHollingsworth | sschablow, it depends on how the client already measures those things, it may be, but not an easy sell |
| karenswim | says | if it were called BDM, people would not immed dismiss as a "time suck" |
| davidalston | good point karenswim - we are starting to refer to social media as the social web (dropping the media) |
| AmberCadabra | karen davidalston but i almost think its the "social" that's the problem, not the "media" |
| Connie | agrees that the term social media has been a sticking point for many. |
| GHollingsworth | it doesn't matter what you call it, DM people still want hard measurable stats that tell them what they're getting out of it in $ |
| AmberCadabra | "social" has a casual connotation that undermines its credibility in the business world |
| davidalston | What would you measure other than ROI? |
| pchaney | says | As to need for SM, if our customer base is there (think Forrester technographics) how can we not be, regardless of direct monetary benefit. |
| beminedesign | thinks | many marketers are also waiting to see if social media (web) will end up being more than a buzz word. |
| GHollingsworth | I think for many DM people they equate social media with social networking and see it as an ad space and little more |
| contrapuntist | asks | ambercadabra what do you mean by social vs. media? |
| Connie | I remind ppl that "social" simply refers to people as opposed to "computer". They understand computer networks. Social media is people net |
| MackCollier | says | but at the same time, the term 'social media' is what everyone is used to. If you change it, then it confuses and dilutes meaning IMO |
| beminedesign | thinks | we know it already is |
| davidalston | ambercadabra - also a good point |
| MackCollier | says | a lot of people hate the term 'web 2.0', but everyone is used to it, why change boats now? |
| giggey | says | tone of the conversation, like ideastorm...number of new ideas |
| AmberCadabra | contrapuntist i mean in the term "social media", it's the "social" part that throws people off |
| sschablow | says | Greg Hollingsworth good point. Most of my clients do at least an annual brand awareness study. Only a few do cust satisfaction |
| danalookadoo | thinks | storyspinner has point about R of ROI. R should be redefined - Relationships, Opportunity, Investment |
| beminedesign | thinks | the business world needs to catch up with the people. |
| davidalston | certainly it mostly describes "online conversations" IMO |
| AmberCadabra | mackcollier I don't think we need to change the term, i think we need to redefine what "social" means in this space |
| pchaney | thinks | that he prefers the term "conversational media" better. |
| davidalston | danalookadoo - very nice - sounds like a great future blog post |
| Connie | says | Or should we change the I of ROI. Return on involvement. |
| AmberCadabra | connie it depends on if your community is there or not. But if they are, you'll be left behind because your competitors are doing it. |
| Teeg | thinks | you have a good point AmberCadabra |
| MackCollier | says | Connie that's the prob, many cos wont bother with SM till they see a competitor makin hay with it |
| davidalston | Wow, nice as well connie |
| potsie | thinks | consumer generated media morphed into social media will morph into another term... |
| Connie | Mack, that means we need more case studies to show SM successes. |
| AmberCadabra | age old issue of be a trailblazer or a follower. but being a trailblazer carries risk of failure, which turns companies off. |
| GHollingsworth | Community Building is the best description I can think of to describe how SM can be used as a marketing tool |
| karenswim | says | davidalston online conversations but also reputation/brand mgmt |
| davidalston | mackcollier - good point - any examples to share? |
| Telemill | MarkCollier hits the nail on the head with this issue. |
| GHollingsworth | SM is about community, trust, transparency and engagement. These are all things that good companies should be willing to embrace |
| pchaney | says | we need to send copies of GroundSwell to every CEO! |
| storyspinner | connie.. now that's a great point |
| AmberCadabra | agrees that we need to get vigilant with capturing and sharing case studies among this community |
| karenswim | says | agree with connie more case studies are needed |
| Connie | Goes back to similarity with PR - SM helps build good will. Cannot easily measure that, but you know when you don't have it. |
| Telemill | Until there are 'examples', clear examples of companies using social media for gain, there will always be this issue. |
| MackCollier | says | right, I am sick of talking about Dell |
| pchaney | says | the Groundswell is replete with case studies. |
| karenswim | says | Like return on involvement connie! |
| Connie | Groundswell is a great resource. |
| Telemill | I think its also an issue of education. College courses are remiss in teaching students the "need" the true effectiveness of networks. |
| pchaney | says | mackcollier - Well, there's Starbucks |
| MackCollier | says | paul I thought it was very interesting how in Groundswell they broke down exact cost and money that GM made from its blog in first year |
| GHollingsworth | the problem with case studies is that they can't be readily applied across industry segments |
| AmberCadabra | connie you're onto something there. maybe it's not measuring the "what do we get" but "what are we missing if we don't" |
| davidalston | what are some good examples of companies listening and engaging in social media? |
| karllong | is | yeah, that and the Cluetrain, and Here Comes Everybody |
| danalookadoo | wants | to know if there is a good way to explain SM without using terms we, the insiders, use. Layman's explanation? |
| Telemill | Seriously, if we looked at companies and individuals that we deem successful . . . what do they have that others don't? |
| GHollingsworth | sorry, I meant across *all* industry segments, thus they aren't always useful |
| AbleReach | asks | is sm more like the networking behind the scenes of face to face marketing, in that you need to know what's happening w/audience & friends |
| Telemill | Control of a network. |
| Connie | has | anyone tried to use Stowe Boyd's formula for Conversation Quotient? It looks at comments/trackbacks in ration to # of blog posts. |
| AbleReach | asks | and audience/friends need to know what's going on with you? (unlike straight SEO) |
| karenswim | says | telemill agreed however think of other mktng efforts such as trade shows not always a 1:1 but cos understand need 2 participate in key shows |
| AmberCadabra | Greg in literal terms, maybe not, but we need to help companies understand the undercurrents that exist regarless of industry |
| GHollingsworth | good question David |
| karllong | thinks | Plurk needs threading, that would make this much more usable for long discussions like this |
| MackCollier | says | i polled my blog readers a couple of weeks ago, the content they most wanted to see was social media case studies |
| MackCollier | says | everyone wants to see the potential quantified |
| Beth Harte | says | hi all, furiously reading.... |
| GHollingsworth | AmberCadabra agreed, there need to be more readily accessible success stories |
| davidalston | asks | can you measure the importance of listening? OR is it the essence of what all biz's need to be doing? |
| MackCollier | says | I think if Dell can ever directly tie a concrete growth in sales/business back to social media, that it will be huge |
| sschablow | says | even the best case studies I've seen use involvement as the metric for success. Hard to convince corp to invest $$ w/o business case. |
| AbleReach | asks | SEO relates to dominating a search result & demonstrating trust, not so much in a relationship that will make people search for YOU |
| potsie | says | that Toyota is a good example: townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.f0c20c4 They engage on the Edmunds boards. |
| giggey | thinks | that once we see more empirical research in academic journals we'll have a better case. Need objective, empirical research |
| MackCollier | says | and I know about dell outlet on twitter, i am talking about showing how their spending time interacting in this space = %growth |
| pchaney | says | davidalston - not including Dell, there's Natl. Comp. Cancer Network |
| Connie | Dell can point to approx. $500K in direct sales from their Twitter account. |
| AmberCadabra | davidalston i think that's preaching to the choir, here. two ears one mouth and all that. |
| seerysm | says | my focus is on employer branding and we assess & monitor the # of and tone of SM mentions related to a company and employment |
| sschablow | says | davidalston good point on 'listening'. there are good cases of co's that listen and provide new/better prod/svcs that became profitable. |
| Telemill | MackCollier and there lays the problem. The method is really "too new" to have a variety of case studies that would satisfy their need |
| karllong | says | mackcollier the content and examples are out there Dell, Threadless, Yelp, Fiskerters lots of case studies |
| MackCollier | says | Connie, if they can ever point to sales from Richard and Lionel being on Twitter, then we have something HUGE |
| Telemill | . . . for undeniable "proof" |
| danalookadoo | wants | to know if someone has put together SM case studies? Zappos is awesome. WholeFoods sharing food info on Twitter. |
| potsie | thinks | yes, you can davidalston Show companies how they missed opportunities by not listening. Show them traffic #s on boards that matter. |
| AbleReach | asks | so SEO = research serps, & sm = influencer of decisions that come after or parallel to research. |
| karenswim | says | what about Zappos? |
| GHollingsworth | Southwest has done a fair job using the space, but I don't know if they could tie revenue to it. |
| Connie | NOTE: You will probably have to manually refresh your Plurk timeline or the Plurk page. www.plurk.com/p/18etd |
| AmberCadabra | sschablow I think the issue is in convincing the companies that they NEED the involvement. Many don't think it's necessary. |
| karllong | says | I think the issue is cultural, in a big company the people responsible in PR and Mktg are the most threatened by loss of control |
| davidalston | asks | mackCollier - Dell rev up 20% EPS up 29% but still need to find the "tie" to social media |
| seerysm | says | and then we look at how that changes over time (the number and tone) as participation increases |
| MackCollier | says | and speaking of Zappos, its great that they are all over twitter, now how has that increased sales? we all think it has, but numbers? |
| GHollingsworth | I know H&R Block claims to have seen a boost from their efforts, although I find it hard to believe they saw a significant increase |
| MackCollier | says | David, exactly! We *think* their being in SM is working, but we need proof to convince the naysayers |
| Connie | Mack, how can you tie a great story in WSJ about your product to bottom line impact of sales? Same with SM. |
| davidalston | amberCadabra - funny eh - companies would never question "involvement" with incoming phone calls |
| karllong | says | davidalston look at the amount of ideas on ideastorm over the course of time, tie that to rise in EPS |
| pchaney | says | GM Fast Lane blog was as much about listening as speaking. |
| giggey | thinks | we need to make the leap from correlation to causality. We have examples of succesful Cos, who also use social media.need to prove causality |
| MackCollier | says | naysayers say 'show me the money, or shut up' |
| DaveWebb | I agree, Amber. There has to be a demonstration of value. Common ROI metrics don't always do that |
| AmberCadabra | the prob is, the path of community back from SM channels to the company can be a winding one |
| MackCollier | says | Connie good point |
| sschablow | says | H&R Block has stated that they are in SM for the long haul as a long-term strategy to build younger client base. |
| Beth Harte | says | karllong those mktrs and PR folks need to learn that they lost control long ago. |
| karenswim | says | mack w/Zappos I also wonder if the twitter participation has + impact on employee value which leads to greater customer satisfaction |
| davidalston | mackCollier - perhaps further integration of social media into all aspects of biz and systems can track the ties. |
| contrapuntist | wonders if the tie between SM and link to $$ is integrating as a support for other marketing efforts |
| AmberCadabra | davidalston no kidding. but they don't want their customers necessarily giving them feedback, just sales |
| pchaney | says | I think it's undeniable that retail sites that have ratings and reviews exp. bump in traffic, engagement and....sales. |
| MackCollier | says | David good point, like does letting employees use these tools increase morale? |
| davidalston | ambercadabra - |
| Connie | thinks | PR missed the boat by not taking the lead in SM. They are more accustomed to measuring "soft" benefits of their work. |
| GHollingsworth | sschablow, that's true. But they're approaching it with a definite DM approach, they're not listening unless they hear certain words |
| MackCollier | says | I am loving the discussion guys, great stuff! |
| denise205 | asks | karenswim, so is the measurement we need one of customer satisfaction? |
| AbleReach | asks | remember those phone company ads where a busy signal symbolized losing business? We need a pr campaign like that for SM |
| Teeg | says | I wonder how many companies look at newspapers and say using SM didn't help them, why should we expect it to either. |
| Telemill | US corps are notorious for not engaging and taking seriously -- long-term strategies. |
| davidalston | mackcollier - or if someone is looking to buy "x" and you reach out and connect and end up with sale (tying this to the outreach) |
| AmberCadabra | connie you're so right. the irony is that my newest client is a PR firm because they now realize they've been left behind |
| GHollingsworth | Great point Connie. I've been trying to convince our PR people to get on board for over a year. Its as if they resent SM at this point |
| Connie | says | Contrapuntist has good point about seeing SM as *support* for other marketing |
| karenswim | says | MackCollier and increase that connection they feel to the "value" of their job which is proven morale booster |
| Telemill | This is why Toyota is #1 now, because they make it company CULTURE to think 40 years down the line. Not tomorrow, not 5 years from now, 40. |
| AmberCadabra | thinks | i have my hands full with this recap! LOL |
| GHollingsworth | good point Telemill. However, it's easier to plan long term when you have coffers the size of Toyota's |
| AmberCadabra | potsie I'd love to see those. Do you hav examples? |
| karenswim | says | Telemill yes, yes! Focus on long term just as you do with your $ |
| davidalston | telemill - good example |
| Connie | asks | DavidAlston Can you address potsie's point about PR using "ad equivalency" to measure. Any analogy to SM? |
| Beth Harte | shares | PR uses impressions too. That might be a measurement that can be used in SM too that PR folks can relate to. |
| giggey | thinks | the people from PerkettPR do a good job using SM tools |
| sschablow | says | telemill with the average CMO tenure at 18 months, there is no reason to have long-term strategy. |
| Connie | says | "potsie" agree that many PR people now "get" social media. But by and large PR has been very slow to adopt SM. |
| karenswim | says | denise205 I think that is a part of measuring customer engagement |
| Beth Harte | asks | connie, that's the "soft" metric. |
| AmberCadabra | sschablow Whoa. New plurkshop topic THERE LOL |
| Connie | SHIFT communications is another example of PR company using social media tools. |
| MackCollier | says | but I think as companies hire more younger workers that are more familiar with social sites/tools, cultures will become more open |
| Telemill | GregHollingsworth, see? That's the US thinking I was talking about. The funny part of that is they BEGAN with long-term thinking. |
| potsie | AmberCadabra Full disclosure that my employer put this together: www.imsaturn.com/ |
| DaveWebb | Case for newspapers - mommy bloggers have had huge impact on Cincinnati Enquirer |
| davidalston | connie - good question - point to consider with SM is that it's more like 2 way communication device than a media. U agree? |
| giggey | thinks | Thornley Fallis another PR example |
| Connie | When it comes to "impressions" to measure PR, that's where tools like Radian6, or even the standard Google Alert, can help quantify SM. |
| GHollingsworth | In my specific case, the issue has been trying to impress on DM folks the importance of brand expansion through SM as cost effective |
| contrapuntist | potsie what I am talking about is allowing a word of mouth strategy to dictate communications planning |
| bhamlibby | thinks | from what i've heard/seen on the whole, most ad agencies are making SM part of PR. |
| pchaney | says | to reflect on davidalston 's question earlier SM has given us the ability to make listening an art and science. |
| contrapuntist | ... that means incorporating all other marketing elements which include SM and PR and all others |
| Connie | davidalston, agree that SM is 2-way rather than tradtl. media. |
| AmberCadabra | contrapuntist Do you mean allowing the community to lead your strategy and allow it to evolve based on them? |
| epodcaster | says | I'm late to this, but I have to agree with connie. The I is Involvement. Getting business to understand this is key |
| DebInAustin | says | I am giving up. I wrote a number of PR related plurks and none of them showed up in the thread. Look forward to the recap. |
| pchaney | says | and listening is the basis for everything else. Hence, if nothing else, SM has a place there. |
| GHollingsworth | In my specific case, the issue has been trying to impress on DM folks the importance of brand expansion through SM as cost effective |
| contrapuntist | no.. there is disconnect between SM and all other disciplines |
| giggey | thinks | it still comes down to obj of research. Lots of whitepapers and case studies from vendors. Great start, now we need more |
| AmberCadabra | bhamlibby but on the same front I see a lot of ad agencies using it to push content, but not to drive their clients to engage |
| GHollingsworth | In my specific case, the issue has been trying to impress on DM folks the importance of brand expansion through SM as cost effective |
| contrapuntist | what I mean is think about how SM as a tool supports what you hope to achieve |
| GHollingsworth | SM is about engagement, and Amber is right, too often it is used to push content, not to start discussions |
| Connie | got logged out somehow. Plurk has the hiccups. |
| davidalston | Things you can measure are social dynamics on posts (comment count, views, unique commenters, level of engagement) and relationships2 others |
| sschablow | says | Chris Brogan and his guest now talking about SM and ROI in webinar. |
| davidalston | connie, I was also booted out. Back now. |
| epodcaster | says | every business wants raving fans. SM is the way to not only find them but to connect with them. |
| DaveWebb | davidalston agree that it is more like 2-way communication, but also is means of distribution. |
| Connie | contrapuntist if I understand right, your point is that SM is distinct from all other disciplines in that it exists to support them? |
| GHollingsworth | another part of the problem is the integration of DM into SM spaces (e.g. Beacon on Facebook) |
| davidalston | sschablow - lets do a cross platform connection to them - that would be cool. |
| epodcaster | says | So perhaps the Return on Involvement is the discovery of the raving fans? |
| davidalston | greg Hollingsworth - tell us more... |
| GHollingsworth | doesn't SM have to be 2-way communication to be SM? One person speaking to an empty room isn't very social |
| Connie | Plurk is updating API and we may experience some technical difficulties. If necessary, log back in & go here: www.plurk.com/p/18etd |
| bhamlibby | AmberCadabra, that's def. true, I think many are using old techniques just puttin them in 'new media', which doesnt work. |
| davidalston | epodcaster - "the longtail" and influencer discover process is very valuable to any brand |
| potsie | agree contrapuntist but some companies aren't ready for it. Use WoM to learn interests if customers and then fold back into programs |
| karenswim | says | I'm back in are we still live? |
| GHollingsworth | I work for a small company that exists solely due to DM, we can't afford traditional "brand advertising" |
| storyspinner | thought that logging out was just me.. |
| MackCollier | says | or is it Return on Interaction? |
| Telemill | No, plurk had problems we all got booted. |
| GHollingsworth | SM has the ability to be a very cost effective form of brand advertising (minus the advertising portion)but they still see it in terms of DM |
| contrapuntist | connie my point is that because many orgs don't get it, perhaps thinking of it as a support for other activities might help biz understand |
| Connie | Mack, I said Involvement, but Interaction is another good word. |
| Telemill | Wait, wait . . . let's go back to the "engaging" statements. The 2-way communication idea. |
| MackCollier | says | should we call it Return on Interaction? |
| davidalston | Greg, many other companies (Radian6 included) have primarily relied on SM and WOM for the same reasons to build their brand. |
| DaveWebb | Greg Hollingsworth Don't you think SM enables branding for small biz? |
| Telemill | Do you think THAT is the fear? This is a 2-way communication, that companies really don't want to "engage", they just want to |
| contrapuntist | connie has the distinct advantage that traditional media doesn't you can track response to what ever is out there |
| sschablow | says | care to try and measure interaction? Quality of experience, time spent, attitude change? |
| pchaney | says | in trad. media marketing ROI stands for "Return On Interruption"; now, that's not working so well. |
| GHollingsworth | but the more DM programs SM sites put it into place, the more it muddies the waters for DM folk, who see it as DM and not as engagement |
| davidalston | markcollier - also a great ROI definition |
| contrapuntist | er. Meant to say SM has the distinct advantage |
| giggey | has | to head out...thanks all! |
| Telemill | quickly make the product/service and move on to making more money. Because when you say 2-way, engagement, relationship that DOES |
| LaShae | says | @ dave more than just 2 way communication it's a way to find out what needs to be *distributed* ie what information r those talking, missing |
| epodcaster | says | MackCollier: Yes it is. ROI in the "Web 2.0" world is Return on Interaction/Return on Involvement which leads to Return on Investment |
| pchaney | says | because shouting doesn't work, and people are talking to each other, SM engagement is a matter of self-defense. |
| GHollingsworth | DaveWebb of course, unless you've spent the whole of it's existence relying on DM |
| Telemill | mean more time and effort. |
| Connie | Contrapuntist your point is interesting; I do see how SM can serve a support function for various disciplines. |
| DaveWebb | Man, I have a serious delay. Making it almost impossible to keep up. have to refresh manually constantly. |
| davidalston | ambercadabra - definitely awesome ROI definitions coming out of today. Very cool. |
| sschablow | says | MackCollier interaction would be great. It's like ad biz discussion of measuring 'engagement' |
| Teeg | has | a thought building that isn't fully developed yet, but what if trying to show a return is the problem. |
| davidalston | thx giggey |
| GHollingsworth | SM can be an awesome branding tool for small business, but if your boss is an old school direct marketer it can be hard to sell to them |
| Teeg | what if instead you show the cost of NOT using SM? |
| Beth Harte | says | epodcaster, I use that next time someone asks me why... ROI/I/I |
| AmberCadabra | davidalston I'm so grateful this is all bookmark-able. |
| Beth Harte | says | GregHollingsworth, I am planning on using DM to promote SM. There is potential measurement in that to make folks who like numbers happy. |
| MackCollier | says | i think cos need to realize that with social media, they have to get their hands dirty, they have to provide value |
| GHollingsworth | Teeg, is that any different than showing the cost OF using SM? |
| davidalston | Greg, as long as you can show a connection to potential customers each week you'll stay alive |
| karenswim | says | Connie Teeg exactly, it still returns to concrete metrics, you lose X for NOT participating |
| Jane Chin | says | I deal with the ROI problem in my niche segment (medical influence) and no matter what RO(x) you call it, it all comes down to: |
| epodcaster | says | pchaney: I couldnt' agree more. I am so OVER being talked/shouted AT. Talk WITH me. Listen and interact. |
| Jane Chin | says | I deal with the ROI problem in my niche segment (medical influence) and no matter what RO(x) you call it, it all comes down to |
| Jane Chin | says | MONEY saved or money earned. |
| Beth Harte | says | pchaney, amen! It is hard... |
| GHollingsworth | bethharte I've been down that road, it worked, just not well enough to continue down the path for our company |
| davidalston | mackcollier - good point. Imagine taking $millions from ad budget and employing 1000's of people to listen and engage? |
| potsie | must run - interesting discussion. |
| Jane Chin | says | (sorry for the hiccup. using plurk page) |
| AmberCadabra | is | it just me, or do some of these companies seem downright afraid of conversing with their customers? |
| karenswim | says | Mack right and that IS the problem for many |
| Connie | David, what can be measured to show engagement? Comments on blog posts? Links on Twitter? Mentions in online media? |
| Beth Harte | says | ...but SM helps when not a lot of budget dollars are available. As well, it's easier for SMBs to give up control & welcome interaction. |
| GHollingsworth | davidalston can I get that in writing so I can show it to our VP of Marketing? |
| contrapuntist | AmberCadabra in my experience thus far, yes |
| Jane Chin | says | mackcollier I do think companies believe they are providing value with their "push" mentality. Perhaps need to define "what" value to "whom |
| karenswim | says | janechin good point! |
| beminedesign | thinks | yes, they're afraid. They're used to preplanning their message. |
| epodcaster | says | bethharte: Plurkshops are a great way to brainstorm concepts/ideas. I call it a "Braingasm" when it happens like this. |
| GHollingsworth | bethharte that depends on how you use the DM in relation to the SM |
| Telemill | AmberCadabra "afraid of conversing with their customers" ding, ding, ding! |
| MackCollier | says | BTW almost 400 replies in first hour in middle of the day is amazing |
| Jane Chin | pritcharddesign also any deviations in expected customer response means going back to square 1 and that's a lot of mtgs to attend again |
| Beth Harte | asks | what about NPS and CLV, has anyone used those metrics yet? |
| davidalston | connie - inside SM - # comments, # posts, views, length of comments, on topic inbound linking etc... |
| GHollingsworth | Great point Connie, how do we measure "connections to customers" that we can't necessarily attach a $ to? |
| ConnieBensen | I was reading but missed a big chunk in the middle |
| Jane Chin | why don't we use this plurkshop as an example and see what ROI could be? for ex. out 395 how much signal how much noise for whom to do what? |
| Teeg | says | Plurks autocomplete isn't working |
| karenswim | says | what about the service aspect of SM? One could argue it is an extension of customer service |
| davidalston | mackcollier - yes, awesome discussion all. I think we wanted to keep it to an hour. Shall we wrap up? |
| AmberCadabra | janechin that's why cos have to take off the lead boots and learn to be more nimble. trad marketing makes for a slower reaction |
| Connie | davidalston So there are a lot of things we can measure w/ SM, the question is assigning a $ value to it for those who insist on hard numbr |
| Beth Harte | says | AmberCadabra, yes! They are afraid! I have seen it first hand...with sales folks. Won't ask questions as simple as 'do you have a budget?' |
| bhamlibby | AmberCadabra and Telemill, yes i think co. fear is one of the biggiest obstacles! |
| GHollingsworth | has | it been an hour? hardly feels like it |
| Jane Chin | AmberCadabra agreed, but logistically the size of the co./mrkg dept becomes the factor to agility. |
| contrapuntist | the tricky the some corps is moving past legal departments |
| AmberCadabra | has | it really been an hour? dang! |
| Jane Chin | contrapuntist do you mean corporate compliance is a roadblock? |
| davidalston | connie - yes, this is where the ability to analyze across a topic, time, against competitors, etc.. can help to quantify investment |
| Beth Harte | asks | Could we do a PlurkShop on NPS and CLV? Are they viable? How have they been used, etc. Thanks for the PlurkShop! Excellent as usual. |
| pchaney | says | got to go...thanks for great convo; can't wait for AmberCadabra 's wrapup. |
| karenswim | says | great discussion, hour flew by! |
| davidalston | ambercadabra - time flies when you're havin' fun... |
| Connie | Agree that it barely feels like an hour and we even had to battle the Plurk hiccups. Awesome conversation. We need a part 2! |
| GHollingsworth | the trick with many DM'ers is convincing them that they've already "lost control" and holding on tighter won't help |
| Jane Chin | oh well.... got in for the tail 5 mins |
| Telemill | We need a plurkshop on overcoming companies' fear of 2-way communication and letting go of the PUSH mentality. |
| AmberCadabra | all, pls email me at amber@altitudebranding.com if there's something you wanted to contribute but couldn't |
| davidalston | wishes | everyone a great rest of the day - thanks for the great discussion all. |
| sschablow | says | really enjoyed the discussion. Thanks to all for taking time and sharing. |
| Connie | Thank you so much davidalston. |
| GHollingsworth | great conversation, just wish there hadn't have been so many plurk-ups |
| pchaney | says | many mini-convos going on at same time; need multiple threads to keep up. k, bye! |
| contrapuntist | janechin yes in a way, whenever I have drafted something for a biz in response, it has to go through approval process |
| AmberCadabra | I'd be up for a part 2, i think there's so much still to talk about |
| AmberCadabra | davidalston, many thanks for your time and insight today. |
| Jane Chin | contrapuntist agreed. I work with pharma companies (compliance is huge) and some have begun using adherence to compliance as a metric. |
| contrapuntist | sheesh I can't type fast enought today |
| karenswim | says | Thanks davidalston and all, this was time well spent. |
| davidalston | wishes | ambercadabra - I'm up for a part 2 as well if you'd like. Let me know. Glad to help out. |
| Connie | Amber, I think we barely scratched the surface. This is a very important topic to many of us. |
| bhamlibby | bye - enjoyed it!  |
| AmberCadabra | davidalston gonna take you up on that! |
| davidalston | karenswim - thanks to you and everyone for their great ideas today |
| contrapuntist | awesome convo |
| Jane Chin | AmberCadabra I'd like to contribute some comments as knowledge-based work metrics is a study area of mine but want to first read the transx |
| Connie | Both AmberCadabra and I plan to do recaps. We will post the links when ready. |
| Jane Chin | when's the deadline 4 emailing u |
| AmberCadabra | thanks to everyone for your incredible insights. i can't wait to pull this all together and will post a link ASAP |
| epodcaster | says | I enjoyed finally being able to participate in a plurkshop. Great topic can't wait for the next one. Have a great day! |
| davidalston | connie - let's pick this up again in a few weeks and do a part 2 perhaps. |
| AmberCadabra | janechin I'll be working on the recap and hope to have it up by tonight |
| contrapuntist | janechin the only workaround I have come up with is drafting samples and a Q&A to make things more conversational |
| AmberCadabra | but you can always leave a comment - i'll post it on my blog - so the conversation can continue |
| davidalston | ambercadabra will be pulling together a summary of today - I look forward to it. |
| Connie | DavidAlston, that sounds great. Would love to have your assistance with part 2 on this topic. Thanks so much for doing this! |
| Teeg | I look forward to reading the summaries. Thanks for leading it davidalston! |
| MackCollier | says | would be great to have a plurkshop where we share/discuss social media case studies |
| davidalston | connie - you are very welcome and thanks for asking me to take part in this. Was a great discussion. |
| Jane Chin | ok. will content myself with reading your summary and commenting. contrapuntist ~scenario-based type of "training" it sounds like. |
| beminedesign | says | Thanks! Looking forward to a recap! |
| AmberCadabra | MackCollier I love that idea |
| Jane Chin | p.s. is the only plurkshop topic allowed related to social media? |
| Teeg | I think that would be a great one, MackCollier! |
| davidalston | teeg - thanks - markcollier - great idea - maybe we could comment on ambercadabra 's post on ones we'd like to talk about? |
| Connie | Weird. Plurk page shows only 377 responses. The timeline shows over 450. We are missing replies somehow. |
| davidalston | connie - I noticed this as well. Hmmmm. |
| MackCollier | says | great idea David, we need to show 'real-world' examples as they help validate entire space to cos |
| AmberCadabra | janechin absolutely not, that's just the way they've been trending i think |
| MackCollier | says | jane no! what do you have in mind? |
| AmberCadabra | ConnieBensen i think the plurk page counter is off. |
| DaveWebb | ConnieBensen Yeah I'm having problems following. Have to manual refresh constantly. Weird. |
| AmberCadabra | whoa I just typed Connie...weird |
| DaveWebb | whoops how did that happen???? I typed @ Connie!! |
| Teeg | says | it's supposed to do that now, Amber, was added yesterday...but didn't work earlier with all the typing. |
| Connie | That is weird. Plurk definitely having some hiccups today. And they updated the API right in the middle of our plurkshop! |
| Connie | Hope they haven't gotten my account confused with Connie Bensen's. |
| DaveWebb | O.K. I'm out. Too hard. But I'll go back & check it out. |
| Teeg | says | Connie benson comes up first on the name list, and she typed in this conversation |
| DaveWebb | BTW, I blogged about measuring intangibles a few months back. |
| DaveWebb | If anyone's interested here's the link: missiondrivenmarketing.com/2008/02/21/measuring-intangibles-revisted-social-media-metrics-roi/ |
| Connie | Reading my mind ... |
| DaveWebb | Hope that's not a shameless plug. I think it's relevant |
| AmberCadabra | alright Connie, we have our work cut out for us!! |
| DaveWebb | There's two posts in that thread, btw. I recommend reading both. |
| robins | is | ok, what did I miss? ; ) |
| Jane Chin | (sorry MackCollier i need to go as i have baby poop all over my office now) emergency cleanup. |
| martinbogo | 481 message overload! |
| AmberCadabra | martinbogo...we had one that was almost 700. talk about WHOA |
| NancyFaye | says | Coulndn't make the plurkshop live, but have read the posts. Great information. Hopefully I |
| vaxen_var | thinks | Plurk needs a smoother interface. Got here but in a rather round about way. So... Hello Plurkworld! |
| vaxen_var | thinks | Yeah, July 11th... one day too late! Better late than never? At least Amber tweets... |
| AmberCadabra | I'm multitasked/talented. Welcome vaxen_var! |
| vaxen_var | thinks | Guess I'll have to hunt up some plurk people on Twitter then just ask questions about usage. Not fun at this stage... |
| vaxen_var | says | Thanks Amber. You sure are! |
| vaxen_var | says | P presume this is 'live' now? |
| vaxen_var | says | Live is relative. Plurk is cumbersome, I'm outta here! |
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